Hi Suzy, apologies for the two-week gap here, I've been on a self-induced crash by upping my methylfolate...I think I pretty much gave them all in my earlier post on this thread, except maybe I didn't mention the pain. It's not agonizing pain, but it's noticeable.
But here's the thing, and I think it's a good (if small and isolated) indicator that methylation may indeed be the key: after three months on Freddd's B12 protocol, I'm now only slightly nauseated some of the time, instead of being nauseated virtually all of the time. I still have some mild gut pain. When I started the protocol, I was nauseated in varying degrees most of the time; the startup on the protocol sent me into nausea around the clock. But when that 6-week storm ended, I came out with only occasional nausea, milder than before. Still have the mild-but-noticeable gut pain. My solid waste has become much more normal. I have hemorrhoids and they swelled painfully up this last round with the methylfolate; in the past such exacerbations of symptoms have led to symptom reduction after things settle down with the new dosage.
I've added kefir (the real kind, from grains) to my diet. I don't know if it's this or my continued B12 protocol that's now producing a fair amount of gut rumbling and gas (sorry, but you did ask).
I'm not sure if this is TMI or if I've missed what you're asking for, let me know.
It's never too much info for me ... I'm used to discussing these sorts of things as I have a fair amount of gut probs myself.
I have made kefir from grains and love it, but it produced major rumbling and gas as well. In my case, I think I have to have my motility checked and maybe treat the SIBO first. Too bad as I think kefir can be really healing.
Interesting you had the same thing happen with kefir; I'm going to keep on with it because my symptoms aren't major. I'm hoping it's working with the B12&cofactors to heal my digestive tract.
What are your symptoms? Since we're comparing here...
About EDTA, I'm no chelation expert, but I do know of one brand which sells a companion product to replace minerals. One of my neighbors who had chelation mentioned that the naturopathic doctors he works with gave him breaks between rounds of chelation to replenish his system. Seems as if replacing minerals would be a good idea, which ones and how would be a good thing to investigate.
Sugars/starches cause gut inflammation and fermentation. I am not sure if I have motility or if there is another issue causing the fermenation. I am hoping to get the motiltiy mesaured soon and go from there.
Suzy, I was online researching kefir and found a site that advises, essentially, titration: start with 4 oz., and work your way up. Too late for me now, and things seem to be getting better in that department, but it made sense to me: if you're taking something that replaces bad bacteria with good and may kill fungus and parasites, there are bound to be some repercussions while all that is going on.
By the way I've also read in a few places that you can make kefir with nut milks or soy milk; don't know if that helps your situation. Do you have celiac disease?
I was also interested to read that kefir not only has B vitamins but apparently helps in absorption of B vitamins, some of the major players in methylation.
Thanks Sunday. I find that any dose makes me bloat up. Unfortunatley I really do think I need a motility agent to keep the small intestinal area clear. I'm wating to get some motility testing. Once I have that under control, I'll give the kefir another try. I think it is very benefitical. I follow the autism lists and one mother reported it ridding her child of clostridia while antibotics could not.
I think EDTA is preferred as it is particularly good at catching lead, which seems to be one of the commonest minerals in this biofilm. It is poorly absorbed from the gut so it will do most of its work there which, in this situation, is the desired effect I think. However I have read that chlorella is also sometimes recommended as an alternative.
It's my understanding (via Andrew Cutler, PhD.) that EDTA is an old chelator...good only for lead, but does not chelate mercury or other heavy metals. That may be why some people have had problems with it, I dunno.
There's a Cutler thread if anyone is interested in his protocol it should turn up in a search.
Re Biofilms: One of the herbs in the ayurvedic formula Triphala, has been proven to destroy biofilms. If my memory(!) serves me correctly, I believe it's called haritaki. Yes...here's an article on the discovery:
I'm wondering if anyone has tried diatomaceous earth for heavy metals / parasites? I've read about it off and on, but haven't really met anyone on these forums who have used it?
I'm on the biofilm bandwagon now too and my doc just reccommended diatomaceous earth for heavy metal chelation. It has silica in it and is much less expensive than the microsilica or other products. I think it $15 for a lifetime supply. Need to get the food grade though.
I also read honey and apple cider vineagr can help with biofilms and bacteria too(A tsp a day). SO add that to the earth and that is an affordable treatment plan for those of us on a budget.
...And... Nattokinase, and lumbroknase for the big spenders.
I just read an presentation from a doc that shows good before and after tests of the same patient when using the biofilm protocol. Defintely shows more metal coming out after the treatment.
Thanks for the info about triphala for biofilms and diatomaceous earth as a chelator, who knew? Mark, I'd be very curious to know how you get along with that and the honey/apple cider vinegar thing. Please report back. I had used nattokinase before but didn't know it could serve this purpose. Now I have to go look up lumbroknase...
My doctor spouted out a whole list of things to break down biofilms. I was "on the table" at the time, so didn't get to write them down, but I will ask him by phone as soon as possible. I remember that he said that nattokinase was one of the weaker ones (that is the one I have been taking), he mentioned lumbroknase (it's expensive), but I'll try to get the whole list soon and post it.
Lumbrokinase is made from earth worms I think! I don't know why but that makes it sound effective!
There's one made from silk worms too.
I'm using apple cider vinegar, and garlic, plus some honey as a first approach. And I'll keep taking some coconut oil to scare any uncovered beasties....if the garlic doen't first.:Retro wink:
I read that it's a good idea to use the softer approach first so that if you take something more expensive later on it's work is reserved for the more stubborn biofilms.
Best to avoid taking the minerals that biofilms steal to make themselves stronger while doing the protocol too I think.
Also Suzy, did i read that biofilms use polysaccarides as a bond? That would be sugars of course and complex carbs....I guess if undigested that leaves them for the bugs and their biofilms!
Maybe that's why I feel better eating only monosaccarides? (Based on Specific Carbohydrate Diet)??
I will certainly post about my cider honey and biofilm treament progress, it's going to be awhiel before I know anything. The honey vinegar is something Dr Ursman came up with. (I don't know who that is, I just got a handout form my doc the other day) Apparently this mixture is for people to useto soften biofilms before trying ETDA to remove metals. I guess the honey and vinegar break down the biofilms? before putting in the EDTA chelator to absorb the metals? I think that is the deal, I know I read honey can help with treating bacterial infections somewhere too. something to look in to.
Oh yes bromelan is another enzyme that might help treat biofilms.
the presentation shows before biofilm treament metals chelating results which are very low(in normal range), then after treatment of biofilms the metals tests show really high levels of metals coming out. Within in like three months the metals come out on his presentation. I better not just repost it without permission though. But it is clear the patient is the same, and it is clear what the dates are. they are defitely getting the meatls to come out. once the biolfilms are broken, I guess all the bacteria, yeast, and metals can be treated.
part of the problem with biofilms is the bacteria and yeast that they protect create H2s. The h2s is created instead of the glutathione(that is oversimplified), so not only are we getting the metals out, but we can treat the yeast and bacteria that are fortified in the biofilm. Hey, my brain cell is working today for a change.
Does anyone have the link to the microsilica site. Its IMD or somthing like that. I think they add thiol groups to the silica so its a super enhanced silica.. if I have that right. Silica is generally used to chelate lead, right? Not mercury.
I am getting from yasko that its better to get methlation stable before going after bugs and metals (the ones the methylation does not address.. in biofilm or whereever).. so here's a problem at least for me..
I take enzymes because my blood tends to be thick... so I am going to be releasing metals and bateria by doing so, so I have to be on some sort of killing protocol while still working on methylation, which has its own issues for me with the heavy metal flusing that comes so quickly and hard.
Any ideas? I also have babesias and lyme that flare up. How do you treat?control the liberated bacteria, metals, manage lyme and babs and still be in process (and it is slow) on the methylation protocol?
Additionally, yasko does not seem to like addressing KPU hard and first. She thinks methylation is key not KPU. B6 not good for lymies in high does and contraindicated high does for COMT+ and I forget what else CBS?
I can see her point.. if you overload methylation supps in one directions and derail other processes by overloading then.. ????
has yasko specifically addressed the issue of timing and biofilm?
I know in general her approach is to get methylation working first. But I tell you what ..it's very slow and it's very tough on the body.. but then maybe I wasn't doing enough to support the body. I wasn't doing her RNAs for example.. or even the required amount of testing.
Having said that, her protocol pulled me out of the depths of CFS...so I'm pretty grateful to her (and Rich!!). I just wish there was an easier way.
I also tried the biofilm protocol last year on a couple of occasions.
I overdid the killing agents one time and had the most hellacious couple of days afterwards...so you definitely need to feel your way. And I wouldn't do it, without having a bunch of chelators, binders on hand. Plus, I'm not sure, but I think it might make sense to have colostrum on hand afterwards to help heal the gut.
as you may know, yasko says that you mess up the gut when you pull metals ....so it's a constant battle to detox those metals and clean up the gut.
I kinda freelance all this stuff and I constantly get into trouble by overdoing it...which means I either should find a good doctor, or I should err on the side of caution.
On the doctor point, I heard Usman present something on this last year.. and I asked her if she would take me as a patient...but she had no interest at that time of seeing adults.
Aquariusgirl... I dont know. I feel so lost on that board at times. EDTA is a biofilm buster.. so my question is what is she doing for what it is busting up? She has herbs for the gut... I think Usman has used EDTA in that too... then follow with the antimicrobial.. but the edta is going to bust up more than gut biofilm.
I wonder if I am on enough to support it all at times.. detox and pathogens that are released by either methylation or the edta or the serrapeptase and nattokinase I am taking.
How does colostrum heal the gut.. I have been taking that lately...
I didnt know yasko said that you mess p the gut when you pull metals.. makes sense and my gut has been more messed up lately.. like it went downhill again. huh...
What do you use to detox, bind and clean up the gut?????
Seems like we have to constantly be on something to address gut bugs, other bugs, metals, viruses... metals... and balance it all out so we dont blast ourselves up.
Has anyone tried these biofilm enzymes yet and what happened?
I tried out taking the Kirkman Labs enzyme mixture which I think has a bit of everything and was formulated by Amy Yasko.
I was taking Erythromycin to follow and then chlorella and charcoal when it got too bad. I could only hack it for a few days as I felt so awful. Headaches that made me vomit from the pain etc.
I am curious to know if anyone else has played the guinea pig, what exactly did you take and did you have more success??