Freddd's B12 Protocol and Skin Problems

[mgd1972]

I'm posting a new thread as I'm not sure what this question falls under, but does anyone else have very dry peeling skin as a side effect on Freddd's B12 protocol? I don't know if it means I should up the methylfolate or potassium or take more B12 or something else. I also have a lot more acne than normal, but I think I read that is a side effect of the folate.

The peeling skin is mostly around my nose, although I have it around the fingernails as well, but that, along with very dry skin generally and dandruff, I've had for a very long time. The peeling skin around the nose is new since starting the protocol in early January 2014. It is driving me crazy!

 

[pela]

peeling skin around nose, mouth and fingernails is listed as a symptom of paradoxical folate deficiency

Acne-like skin problems can be caused by taking hydroxyB12, or damaged methylb12 that has broken down to hydroxy by exposure to light.

 

[Martial]

what brand of methy folate are you using? what is the amount of folate along with methyl and adeno b12 doses?

 

[mgd1972]

what brand of methy folate are you using? what is the amount of folate along with methyl and adeno b12 doses?

I use Thorne research 5-MTHF and I'm taking currently about 20 of them a day (1000 mcg capsules). Sometimes I take less if I miss a dose, and for a while I was taking more like 25-30 a day but thought I'd try cutting back. I take 10 mg each of mb and ad b12, country life and anabol naturals respectively. Also AOR b complex which lists "Folic acid (L-5 MTHF)" - hoping that is actually folate and not folic acid. I eat a lot of vegetables, including greens. Could that be contributing?

The peeling skin cleared up when I spent a week in Cuba recently, and was slathering sunscreen on constantly, so moisturizing helps (or was it the lack of veggies?!), but I think there is a connection with the protocol as it definitely started with that.

Thank you for your replies!

 

[Martial]

Well you are definitely not having deficiency of folate, or the b12's with those doses. Damn how do you afford all that methyl folate lol, ever try to use the 5000 mcg version?

Do you take a b complex vitamin with the bio available forms of b6, folate, and the rest? You need to balance other b vitamins with the folate and b12 with doses that high. Do not use huge doses of other b vitamins though as that will cause insatiable potassium demands. Speaking of which how is the potassium intake for you? Do you supplement or get low potassium symptoms?

Thorne also makes a good b complex that covers this with methyl folate and P5P added.


If it is from folate blocking then this would be triggered from glutathione supplements, whey protein, folic acid containing supplements or foods, NAC, or folinic acid. These would need to be eliminated from the diet/supplementation for trapping to be dropped,no amount of folate and b12 can break some of these methyl trappers.
Folic acid is very common as an additive to breads, grains, cereals, and nutrition bars.

 

[mgd1972]

Well you are definitely not having deficiency of folate, or the b12's with those doses. Damn how do you afford all that methyl folate lol, ever try to use the 5000 mcg version?

Do you take a b complex vitamin with the bio available forms of b6, folate, and the rest? You need to balance other b vitamins with the folate and b12 with doses that high. Do not use huge doses of other b vitamins though as that will cause insatiable potassium demands. Speaking of which how is the potassium intake for you? Do you supplement or get low potassium symptoms?

Thorne also makes a good b complex that covers this with methyl folate and P5P added.


If it is from folate blocking then this would be triggered from glutathione supplements, whey protein, folic acid containing supplements or foods, NAC, or folinic acid. These would need to be eliminated from the diet/supplementation for trapping to be dropped,no amount of folate and b12 can break some of these methyl trappers.
Folic acid is very common as an additive to breads, grains, cereals, and nutrition bars.

I don't use any of those sources of folic acid. The b complex I take is by AOR and I think it has the right forms - is it okay that the Calcium L-5 MTHf is called folic acid? I'm assuming it is actually folate.

I take a lot of potassium - between 2 and 3 g. I do sometimes have low symptoms so try to keep some on me at all times. I usually take 750 mg and 1000 mg at a time.

What brand has the 5000 mcg Methylfolate? I'd love to swallow less pills! Also, this week I've experimented a bit with taking the powder out of the capsules and taking it sublingually,on the recommendation of someone on this forum, i,e. as a more efficient method that can use less. I didn't notice a huge difference and I used 3 mg at a time instead of 4 or 5.

 

[Martial]

okay well then it seems you are well covered with everything. Definitely good on potassium as well, I also take around 750-1000mg at a time, three times a day. I would think if it is a calcium L form mthf then that would be fine, that is the metafolin version as it is binded to calcium. What I don't understand is why it says folic acid. I looked at the AOR B complex you are using the Advanced B complex right? It is marked as folic acid which is strange but the form it says in the chemical breakdown is definitely a metafolin methyl folate.

I would imagine this would cause no issues, though there is WAY too high of doses in this! I can't believe you can keep up with the potassium demand that calls for lol! In fact perhaps some doses are so high it is actually hampering your methylation. you shouldn't need more then 20mg of P5P for one example, it also contains enough niacin that any issues of over methylation would be quenched. I would take the pills and empty them out to about a quarter of the original dose though. This will help you attain the other b vitamins without going overboard on the amount.

There are a couple versions one is from a company called biogenesis nutraceuticals, then Rob Lynch's site offers one I believe, there was a couple other places as well. It is usually labeled as 5mthf this usually comes in 1,000 mcg or 5,000 so just read the ingredients to find the dose. You already have a pretty solid regiment going though, is there any other vitamin supplements or herbs you take?

I really don't have any other idea how you could be running into paradoxical folate deficiency, the version you use is fine and everything else is pretty solid, plus the fact you actually have a potassium demand, and a very high one indicates you are making methyl groups quite well, so well that you need to take supplemental potassium to keep up! Lol

Perhaps it is an allergy to something, or maybe a reaction from the other really high doses of b vitamins? I think other then peeling skin on your nose it sounds like everything is running really smoothly for you, it is also possible that the vitamins are making you more sensitive to sun light and drying out your skin further so maybe just lots of moisturizer, and sunscreen will do the trick, like you mentioned!

Be sure to get the chemical free versions though! I purchased these myself at a local sprouts market, your skin is the largest sense organ in your body and everything it is in contact with gets into your system.

 

[mgd1972]

okay well then it seems you are well covered with everything. Definitely good on potassium as well, I also take around 750-1000mg at a time, three times a day. I would think if it is a calcium L form mthf then that would be fine, that is the metafolin version as it is binded to calcium. What I don't understand is why it says folic acid. I looked at the AOR B complex you are using the Advanced B complex right? It is marked as folic acid which is strange but the form it says in the chemical breakdown is definitely a metafolin methyl folate.

I would imagine this would cause no issues, though there is WAY too high of doses in this! I can't believe you can keep up with the potassium demand that calls for lol! In fact perhaps some doses are so high it is actually hampering your methylation. you shouldn't need more then 20mg of P5P for one example, it also contains enough niacin that any issues of over methylation would be quenched. I would take the pills and empty them out to about a quarter of the original dose though. This will help you attain the other b vitamins without going overboard on the amount.
.

I am taking the advanced b complex but the doses are for three pills, and I'm just taking one. From the label, dividing by three, I'm taking

B1 33 mg
B2 2.5 mg
B3 118 mg
B5 100 mg
B6 33 mg
Mb12 333 mcg
MTHF 333 mcg
Biotin 200 mg
Inositol 131 mg

I wouldn't mind tring a different b complex - what do you recommend?

I also take a vit a, c and e combo with selenium and beta carotene, fish oil when I remember, probiotic, magnesium, molybdenum (sulfur issues) and zinc. And l carnitine fumarate in liquid form.

I'm spending a fortune on pills, but I'm sure most people on here are.

I wonder if the peeling nose is an allergy to all of the fillers etc in the pills!

 

[mgd1972]

Thinking about what was different when I was in Cuba....I took my pills more reliably than some times in my normal life when I forget. So I was closer to 30 mg of folate consistently then. Maybe that is what I need. I also ate way less green vegetables than normal, because of availability. Hmmmm.....

 

[Martial]

I think with the dose of one pill that is actually perfect! and you get the added benefit for reduced cost since it will last you three times as long! I don't understand why so many people take b complexes with such extreme doses. The benefits happen at relatively lower doses and adverse effects grow with each % upwards of a certain point.

Sounds like you have other great supplements as well and over all actually that is not too much stuff! Yeah it can be a tad expensive but cheaper then some other things for sure! 30mg of folate a day is a LOT lol, very, very few people require that much for minimal levels and start up, and again based on potassium demand you don't have any problems with methylation it seems.

Eating a ton of veggies can interfere with methyl folate absorption a bit but I think this more applies to people with the genetic mutations for it, of course over doing the veggies and anyone will run into methyl folate absorption block to a certain degree, fixable by bumping up the methyl folate doses or lowering the veggie consumption.

Ya know I have no idea what the nose thing could be from now, just that you have NO methyl issues with the way you are doing things that is for sure!

How have you been feeling on it so far, any major improvements? Are you taking it for CFS or another condition, or just health reasons in general?

I take Fred's protocol to support methylation while also treating lyme disease with co infections. It does wonders for the herxing and I feel much less toxic from the dying bacteria as a result, also its very neuro protective which I need! Before methylation treatment I was housebound with the lyme and with major cognitive and other weird brain and nervous system issues.. I would hallucinate wierd images or auditory things, and get bouts of severe amnesia, dementia type stuff, and temporal lobe siezures. That all is much more minimal now and I feel much better overall, though my need for sleep has went way up, probably due to needing it! lol

The de toxing from methylation was intense, even more so sometimes then the herxes from lyme itself! :O

 

[mgd1972]

Does that mean I should cut back on the folate? I really have no idea how much I need, it is all guess wrk at this point. How much do you take?

Not actually diagnosed with CFS but I'm sure that is what I have, although the diagnosis was fibromyalgia. Maybe I have both. Anyway fatigue is my biggest problem right now as I'm on medication for the pain and it helps for the mostpart. I work part time but I don't have energy for much else. I wasn't housebound though, except for the very beginning when I got sick in 2012.

I haven't seen a big improvement so far, but I would say a little more energy, a little clearer maybe. Less dizziness I think.

 

[Martial]

Does that mean I should cut back on the folate? I really have no idea how much I need, it is all guess wrk at this point. How much do you take?

Not actually diagnosed with CFS but I'm sure that is what I have, although the diagnosis was fibromyalgia. Maybe I have both. Anyway fatigue is my biggest problem right now as I'm on medication for the pain and it helps for the mostpart. I work part time but I don't have energy for much else. I wasn't housebound though, except for the very beginning when I got sick in 2012.

I haven't seen a big improvement so far, but I would say a little more energy, a little clearer maybe. Less dizziness I think.

Folate can be taken upwards of 30,000mcg a day with no issues so you should be fine, the only thing is cost if you feel you want to save some then cut back.. Just be sure to use enough to avoid paradoxical folate trap either way. I take about 10,000mcg of folate a day, 10,000mcg of methyl b12, and 10,000mcg of adenob12, as well as 1,000mg of carnatine. Recently however I lowered the b12's to both 5,000mcg a day. I was talking to someone else on the forum and they mentioned not wanting my body to become dependent on these supplements and shut down the natural enzymes my body produces for these vitamins.

I think this was pretty important advice to consider, though it is also important to remember with these super high doses it is not actually what is absorbed. You really are only getting a small percentage of these doses, the rest just gets flushed out, unless you are doing injected forms which would concentrate the entire dose. Either way with doses of at least 5,000mcg of each that is more then enough for most people unless a person has pernicious anemia.

Okay well at least you are methylating correctly and your de tox pathways are strong now, this will help to flush out any toxins you may currently have in your system. Now its a matter of finding the issue, There is a strong possibility that you may be dealing with an underlying infection or overload of certain toxins. I myself developed fibro type pains and chronic fatigue with all kinds of other weird stuff about a year and a half ago, previous to that I was healthy as anyone could possibly be and never had a health problem of any kind minus some anxiety things.

I was trying to get proper treatment and answers and eventually even found my way to this forum trying to figure it out, I did however find that I had lyme disease and looking back it was so obvious! Lol, I had all the signs and symptoms and was exposed to ticks in an ex girlfriends ranch in Pennsylvania. I also grew up in New Jersey and hiking and exploring in the wilderness had been a big part of my life since I was a little kid.

I had to go to an LLMD, Lyme literate medical Doctor to find a real answer though, I got tested through the only lab in the U.S. sensitive enough to pick up on all the strains of borrelia bacteria and with people that understand it enough to read results correctly. A lot of people get tested through Elisa, or Western Blot and show negative results and all treatment possibility would end right there for most doctors.


Unfortunately Western blot by CDC standards is an extremely sup par test and does not catch all the possible cases of infection, also it poses the issues of testing for antibodies which the people that are most immune comprimised always come back negative. This is because their immune system is already using all the antibodies up in the infection that there is nothing left to show up on a test, a blood smear is a more accurate test to do because it checks for spirochetes instead of antibodies but not many places do this, it is also pretty pricey.

I had to go to a proper LLMD and get the IgeneX test which even their came back negative for the main result; again because of CDC standard issues, but luckily there was positive anti body activity found in different strains of the test, just not enough to state CDC positive. The fact I was never treated before for Lyme and I had active antibodies proved active infection and I was able to promptly start treatment, I was lucky to find the info I did or I could have went decades with a wrong diagnosis like many other people I have talked to, sadly it is very common.

If this is a possible issue for you I would suggest trying to get in contact with an LLMD and making a test appt to be run through IgeneX labs to see what comes up, though this is just one possibility I just find really important to rule out! The damage the infection can do can get progressively worse if treatment is never started so not worth the risk. The other things you could look into are mercury illness, if you have mercury amalgams or were exposed to a lot of mercury in your life time, alongside other heavy metals, parasites could also be an issue worth checking out,alongside yeast, mold mycotoxins, and a few other things.

A pretty easy way to tell if lyme is an issue for you is to get a strong anti bacterial herb like Olive Leaf Extract, Cat's Claw, Samento, Wild Oil of Oregeno, Isatis, Sida Acuta, Teasal, Banderol, Cinnamon Bark, or a few others I cannot recall off the top of my head. However, if you have a "herx reaction"- worsening of symptoms and reaction then this can easily point to Lyme and co infections as it is pretty unique to that disease.

here is a good list of sites I have used for information and treatment options of Lyme

Healinglyme.com - Dr. Buhner Protocol.

Hansacenter.com -Dr. Jernigan Protocol

Nutrimedix.com -Dr. Cowden Protocol

Betterhealthguy.com -very informative site with lots of tips and advice worth checking out.

These are all the things I looked into myself and I am using the Buhner protocol, alongside a few things from Dr. Jernigan under the care of my own LLMD. The things I showed are all natural herbal approaches to the treatment of Lyme, some others prefer antibiotics but I think these are too toxic on the body and with a very sub standard success rate with long term use. I have spoken to many people that have used I.V. antibiotics for years with little improvement, and then slow but drastic changes on different natural approaches within a period of a year for some, others even quicker, and a few maybe a bit longer.

I think antibiotics are also pretty helpful and sometimes even necessary to bring down the bacterial load at times, however the idea of relying strictly on the antibiotics with no other lifestyle changes, or de tox support seems to have a poor outcome, since this is a multi level and multi system disease it takes an entire lifestyle approach to fully come out of. Some people do also get gradually better with IV and long term antibiotics but it seems for many others they are too toxic as a result of infection and need other ways of assisting their recovery. So this is my take on lyme disease anyways.


Another thing worth checking out is Dr. Shoemakers protocol for Mold Mycotoxins, which also helps clear out other possible bio toxins ALA the CIRS protocol. There is also a book called Mold: the war within, this is about a family getting very sick from black mold and how certain dietary habits helped to starve off the mold in their system.

Here is a Dr. Shoemaker's great and informative site at SurvivingMold.com

and here is the book I mentioned!
http://www.amazon.com/MOLD-Kurt-Lee-Ann-Billings/dp/0972101608




For heavy metal toxicity/Mercury Andy Cutler is the only chelation protocol I would ever trust, though just getting the amalgams out and giving it time is usually more then enough. There are minor potential of risks with any chelation protocol. Personally I better enjoy Dr. Wilsons approach of "nutritional re balancing system approach"

Andy Cutler - http://www.noamalgam.com/

And Dr. Wilson

http://www.drlwilson.com/



Now for Parasites and Tape worms I do not know a whole lot about that but this article covers it pretty well! I ust treat it using specific herbs that are known to treat the coinciding possible infections. Note* do not touch wormwood, this is a common herb used in the treatment of parasites but a potential neurotoxin with sometimes fatal side effects, though the interaction is not really common without absurdly high doses way above what is used for treatment it is still not worth it. 99% of people do not have problems on it but even a 0.01% chance is never worth the risk!

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/com...u-almost-certainly-have-and-curing-lupus.html



I hope this all helps to discuss possible things with your doctor and to get you looking into possible directions for treatment! Keep in mind I am not a medical doctor and am not advising treatment lol. Just giving you things to look into yourself and see if anything might ring a chord and put you in the right direction!

Talk soon,

Sincerly,

Todd

P.S. my reaction to the methylation protocol has been similar, I can still only work part time but feel much less herxing and my body feels much better internally. For me it will just take strengthening my body a bit more, de toxing some, and treating these underlying issues before I get my health back. I have noticed huge improvements for a lot of stuff on Fred's protocol though! Previous to that I was even having hallucinatory things, all kinds of weird dementia type feelings, and other really weird stuff from the lyme in my CNS and brain, as well as my heart. Over all the bulk of those symptoms has gradually diminished and I am just left with a lot of fatigue and an increased need for sleep, with the occasional really weird and unexplainable symptoms that still come and go lol.

 

[whodathunkit]

@mgd1972: my understanding is that some peopole can't process even naturally occurring folinic acid from veggies. So if you are one of those then eating less of those during your visit to Cuba ould have been of benefit to you by not blocking the action of the folate you are taking. If you can't break down folinic acid into folate, even that can cause you problems. It's not the veggies are bad, it's your body's ability to process them into bioavailable folate that's the problem. If you can't, then the folinic acid just sits around in your bloodstream and (as said before) can actually block the availability of the folate you are taking. It can act just like folic acid (a synthetic substance) in that regard. Freddd and some others on this board have had to limit their veggie intake because of this. I remember reading Freddd has a garden and would occasionally bemoan the fact that he couldn't eat all he wanted of his good organic veggies because too much of the folinic acid them would cause him problems.

Another thing I'm wondering is if being in Cuba affected your vitamin D levels, which could affect your skin. You say you were slathering on sunscreen but I live in Florida so know even with sunscreen a lot of sun can reach your skin. If you live in the Northern latitudes then being that far south could have positively affected your vitamin D levels in a pretty short amount of time.

Another thing to think about: what form of vitamin C are you taking? I recently discovered that whether or not your body can make use of the vitamin c you're taking can make a big difference in results with methylation. I was getting my C from food and from some some various powdered supplements, but experienced a rather remarkable boost in and "evening out" of energy when I started taking liposomal C. Currently I'm taking LivOn labs but will be making my own after I run out of it because it's so expensive. It seems some people here need to be careful with vitamin C but you might consider researching and trying some of the more bioavailable forms to see if they benefit you. Vitamin C is integral to the health of our collagen and skin.

Finally: that's a lot of niacin in that B complex you're taking. From what I've read that's more than enough to quench methylation. From my short experience as little as 30mg can have a deleterious effect on us if we don't need it (that's my personal experience). Definitely look at a new B complex. I now take my B's piecemeal because I can't find a complex without niacin. Everyone needs some niacin but I think I'm getting enough from my diet and any extra I add from supplements just doesn't agree with me at this stage of my game. That's not advice to stop taking B complex, because I don't know all your situation, just something to think about.

 

[mgd1972]

@whodathunkit thanks so much for your thoughts on this. I think it maybe was the lack of veggies in Cuba that helped. I love greens so much! Would folinic acid show up as high folate in my blood, explaining why I need to supplement folate even though my level is high? Interesting about the b complex. What does quenching methylation mean? Should I take it at night perhaps, or do we need methylation all the time?

 

[whodathunkit]

A

@whodathunkit thanks so much for your thoughts on this. I think it maybe was the lack of veggies in Cuba that helped. I love greens so much! Would folinic acid show up as high folate in my blood, explaining why I need to supplement folate even though my level is high? Interesting about the b complex. What does quenching methylation mean? Should I take it at night perhaps, or do we need methylation all the time?

I'm not an expert. Hopefully others who know more will chime in. But my understanding is that yes, if you have a lot of folinic acid in your body that's not broken down (that is, you're not getting the folate from it) then that could show up in your blood serum test as high folate. My understanding is that most tests don't discriminate between [unused] folic acid or folinic acid circulating in the blood and the actual methylfolate that will do us good. According to the blood test it's all the same thing. But not according to our bodies.

Methylation is a process in the body the body. Briefly (and what follows is an over-simplification), it forms certain molecules we need to produce energy and be well. These molecules are called "methyl groups".

The methylation process needs certain forms ("active" forms) of certain nutrients to make methyl groups and to be carried out properly. Some of the "big gun" nutrients discussed here that help form methyl groups are methylcobalmin, methylfolate, p5p, etc. There are many more active nutrients needed than that, however. Research on all of the nutrients needed. They're important and it's too complex to list in one post. I don't know them all, anyway. I'm still learning a lot.

With a good diet in a normal, healthy body, the food we eat is usually processed into these active forms of nutrients the body needs to form methyl groups.

But if we eat crap and/or our bodies can't complete the conversion processes for whatever reason, we don't get the right forms of the nutrients and our health starts to fail. Some reasons people can't complete the conversion process even if they eat healthy are genetic mutations, food allergies which run down their general health, etc. It sounds like you may be one of those with the genetic mutation that can't break folinic acid into folate, but without a gene test you can't know for sure.

Some foods and supplements form methyl groups more readily than others. Again oversimplifying, these are known as methyl donors.

When we start to recover our health by deliberately going after the active forms of these nutrients (as we are all doing here) in supplements to make methyl groups, everything doesn't necessarily start off smoothly. It's like starting a car that's been sitting in the driveway for a couple of years. Most of the time it doesn't just start right up and you drive away happy. Lots of things can go wrong. You can flood the engine with gas by pumping the gas pedal too much, for example. This is analogous to taking too many supplements, thereby flooding your body with methyl groups before your body is ready to handle it. The car tries to run, but it can't. Just like your body when you have to many methyl groups (i.e., you're over-methylated). Maybe your body will run, but you feel like crap.

Just like there are nutrients that are methyl donors, there are also nutrients that are accept methyl groups. Niacin is one of these nutrients. They take methyl groups away, thus "quenching" the methylation process.

If you are over-methylated this can be a good thing. Dr. Ben Lynch and I believe Amy Yasko recommend niacin for people using methylation protocols who "flood their engines" with methyl groups (i.e., they become over methylated) and start to feel like crap. The niacin takes some of those unneeded methyl groups out of the equation, thereby helping someone who is over methylated feel better.

But if you don't need any of your methyl groups taken away, using a methyl acceptor like niacin can make you feel worse. It's basically like a car that has a leak in the gas tank...the gas drains out and the car stops running. This is what happens to me when I use too much niacin...it shuts methylation down for me. It makes me feel lousy. But too much niacin for me is probably very little for other people. It's a fairly relative thing.

That is not to say we don't need niacin. We all do. But it needs to be balanced properly or it becomes a methyl quencher. If you're not over methylating and niacin takes some of your methyl groups because it's out of balance in your body, this is not a good thing. Personally, I always had trouble taking niacin and couldn't understand why because I'd heard such good things about it. After all I've learned on this board, I finally understand why I never reacted well to it, and why I probably shouldn't take more than I can get from my food.

Does that make sense? Basically, you should try to figure out what works for you. What I said about niacin was just food for thought. You might be like me and not need it. Or you might be different. Up to you to figure out.

HTH.

 

[Martial]

Todd-
methyl folate can range from 400, to roughly 1600mg a day.. Do you think that low dose of folate would even trigger paradox deficiency? It seems most people that had that were using much higher doses...

Fred-
This one you have 100% backwards. A low dose like this almost always triggers donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency. Higher doses relieve it. Low dose methylfolate PFD can cause massive inflammation.

Daily doses of B1 and B2 above 30-50mg a day and B3 above 100mg a day can cause an insatiable need for methylfolate and potassium, so make sure that is ok. Remind me that you are not taking NAC, glutathione or Whey.

If you want to get rid of low folate symptoms and inflammation try 4mg of l-methylfolate or so each 4-6 hours Typically it will start turning around within a few hours and after a day or 3 you should know for sure. Now it is possible you are one of those who needs 30mg a day to make any headway but that is rare without folic acid or folinic acid or large amounts of vegetable folate.

Try 8mg before you go to bed tonight. Metafolin has no side effects different from sugar pills. That is what the Deplin study says at doses up to 30mg/day. Best results are at 15 and 30mg daily. That is what all my experience says. The people who take tiny doses have terrible reactions and think it is because of so much folate instead of so little. They have even worse responses with 200 mcg of folinic and 200mcg of mfolate. Wow do they get hit. That is because of a double whammy paradoxical folate deficiency. Without the folate you are wasting your money and wasting 90% of the b12. You could get equally bad results from 500mcg of b12.

Try it cautiously, 4 mg and then 4rmg in couple of more hours to avoid possible stomach distress or take 8mg and some food and go for it. You could be a new man in 2 days.

After you get rid of all the folate deficiency symptoms, then is the time to adjust other things. Doing it otherwise is bass akwards.

Now this is my opinion and experience. Everybody who takes the small doses has terrible results and a rough time. The people who use the larger doses get healing going. You can always go back but I would bet you won't want to. Do as you wish. It is your game of you bet your life. I would bet on the bigger "go for it" doses.

Fred

 

[dannybex]

Folate can be taken upwards of 30,000mcg a day with no issues so you should be fine, the only thing is cost if you feel you want to save some then cut back.. Just be sure to use enough to avoid paradoxical folate trap either way. I take about 10,000mcg of folate a day, 10,000mcg of methyl b12, and 10,000mcg of adenob12, as well as 1,000mg of carnatine. Recently however I lowered the b12's to both 5,000mcg a day. I was talking to someone else on the forum and they mentioned not wanting my body to become dependent on these supplements and shut down the natural enzymes my body produces for these vitamins.

You must be (relatively) new here. There are dozens and dozes of reports of folks not being able to tolerate even a crumb of methyfolate, and so they end up needing to increase it very slowly, and/or take it every other day. Some have to stop completely and address heavy metal, mold, mitochondrial or other issues before proceeding with methylation protocols.

@Dreambirdie is just one of many who had a lot of difficulty with methylfolate. I'm sure she can remember some of the others, or point you to the threads. ???

 

[Martial]

You must be (relatively) new here. There are dozens and dozes of reports of folks not being able to tolerate even a crumb of methyfolate, and so they end up needing to increase it very slowly, and/or take it every other day. Some have to stop completely and address heavy metal, mold, mitochondrial or other issues before proceeding with methylation protocols.

@Dreambirdie is just one of many who had a lot of difficulty with methylfolate. I'm sure she can remember some of the others, or point you to the threads. ???

Why do they stop to address the other issues? would the increase in methylation not help naturally de tox these things out of the system? according to Fred as I posted earlier he mentioned this usually happens from paradoxical folate deficiency from only starting with a crumb and using very low doses; stating the reaction is from low doses causing paradoxical folate deficiency.

I don't know everyone else's experiences with methylation here just what had worked for me and my own research, as well as talking to Fred and following all of those posts on his protocol. I noticed similar issues starting on lower doses of 400 to 1600mcg a day, the issues faded once I bumped it up to 10,000mcg a day. Anyways I am obviously not trying to make a debate or anything just curious as to how it all works, from my understanding and discussion with Fred so far it seems very low doses is what should be avoided, among the various methyl trap issues, and then being sure to get enough cobalt to cover your bases. Also a good multi b complex with P5P for vitamin b6 and with very low doses, covering other vital minerals and nutrients, good diet, etc.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Martial: When giving advice about stuff like this it's important to not be too subjective. Everybody's different and some people simply can't do things the way we do them ourselves. Some people are more ill than we are or differently ill...I know you have Lyme but it's very possible that some people are even sicker than you are or have been. Some people don't have the physical energy or psychological wherewithal to "push through" heavy detox symptoms, or to do the research to give them the confidence to push through. Other people have responsibilities (kids, families, jobs, etc.) and are already doing as much as they can do with their existing physical limitations, so they don't have time to deal with the added complications that ramping up quickly can create, or any kind of heavy detox.

I personally believe in Freddd's philosophy and protocol, and am also of the same mind as you...pushing through and ramping up may be better for a lot more people than the experts like Ben Lynch and Amy Yasko allow. But it may also not be a good thing for others, and using Freddd's strategy for long term gain might make life fairly intolerable in the short term for some people. I myself got very sick and had to take a week off work, and while I felt better than ever after that, it might take longer for others, or they might not even be able to tolerate that week. This is why advising people to go low and slow or at least do more research so they can figure out the best approach for themselves is sometimes the wisest course. If people wind up feeling worse after something you tell them to do, and they don't understand what's happening, they tend to blame you. Further, they may go to their doctor and say what made them worse is some advice they got off a discussion board, which just solidifies in many doctors' minds the fact that supplements in the hands of lay people are dangerous and need to be regulated, blah blah blah.

Not to criticize, just throwing it out there for you to consider.

 

[dannybex]

Why do they stop to address the other issues? would the increase in methylation not help naturally de tox these things out of the system? according to Fred as I posted earlier he mentioned this usually happens from paradoxical folate deficiency from only starting with a crumb and using very low doses; stating the reaction is from low doses causing paradoxical folate deficiency.

They stop to address other issues because it's often those issues that are causing the methylation problems in the first place (like mold/mycotoxins or heavy metal issues for example). Yes, many people have genetic polymorphisms which may cause these methylation issues, but there are many who have the polymorphisms and are yet completely healthy. I understand Fred feels the reaction is from a 'paradoxical folate deficiency', but keep in mind that that's his hypothesis. Nevertheless, if you search the site, you'll find that many couldn't tolerate even a crumb. Rich mentions it here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ving-the-methylation-cycle.17889/#post-273391

I don't know everyone else's experiences with methylation here just what had worked for me and my own research, as well as talking to Fred and following all of those posts on his protocol. I noticed similar issues starting on lower doses of 400 to 1600mcg a day, the issues faded once I bumped it up to 10,000mcg a day. Anyways I am obviously not trying to make a debate or anything just curious as to how it all works, from my understanding and discussion with Fred so far it seems very low doses is what should be avoided, among the various methyl trap issues, and then being sure to get enough cobalt to cover your bases. Also a good multi b complex with P5P for vitamin b6 and with very low doses, covering other vital minerals and nutrients, good diet, etc.

I understand Martial. I'm not trying to debate things either -- just felt it important to note that what works for one person can cause extreme problems for others. Fred can't tolerate NAC or whey or glutathione, while others find those supplements beneficial and take for example NAC on a daily basis. We're all different, and have different 'causes' for our ME/CFS, and thus will react differently, and need different treatments with different levels of nutrients, etc..