Forget rituximab! The DWP can cure you at the Job Centre!
- Thread starter Countrygirl
- Start date
Questions to the DWP under FOI - dated 19th July.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mandatory_psychological_treatmen#incoming-680971
Mandatory psychological treatment, by the DWP, on a mandatory benefit sanctions involuntary no choice basis.
Frank Zola made this Freedom of Information request to Department for Work and Pensions
Dear Department for Work and Pensions,
The DWP is considering spending £21 million (£21,000,000) of public
funds to provide digital CBT (Online Supported Cognitive
Behavioural Therapy), as part of this process of
providing psychological CBT 'treatment', you require services to be
in line with:
"National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) approved
treatment"
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov....
You are also "at an early stage" [1] of planning to "co-locate
Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) therapists in
over 350 Jobcentres" [2] and require IAPT "therapist" to hold
specific "qualifications" to "practice within IAPT services" [3].
Recently you stated that all IAPT and CBT would be "entirely
voluntary"[4], implying that no benefit sanctions could be imposed
for declining to engage with IAPT and CBT facilitated via the DWP.
Taking all of the above in account, can you confirm that, in
relation to neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) delivered by DWP
contractors, that:
1. Benefit Sanctions: - Anyone referred to the mandatory NLP
'treatment' schemes you deliver through suppliers like of 'Start
Smiling Again'* and 'Vedas Recruitment & Training Ltd' are NOT
voluntary, as declining to engage in the NLP 'treatment' integrated
into these schemes can mean benefit sanctions, with losses of up to
3 years for Jobseeker's Allowance?
*£48,000 for 'Start Smiling Again' NLP - South West Wales - Stress
Management Programme
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov....
**£165,000 for 'Vedas Recruitment & Training Ltd' NLP - Entrenched
Worklesness Provision
http://data.gov.uk/data/contracts-finder...
2. Qualifications: DWP do not require DWP contractors using NLP to
have any recognised qualifications?
3. Treatment: NLP is not a 'treatment' approved by any Public
Authority?
4. CNHC: DWP do not require DWP contractors using NLP to register
with the Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council (CNHC), a
body "set up with government support" [5], that regulates members
of the British Association of Therapeutic Hypnotists & NLP
practitioners (BAThH) [6] and The British Institute of Hypnotherapy
& NLP?
5. Consent: DWP do not require DWP contractors using NLP on it's
back-to-work schemes, to obtain fully informed freely given
(voluntary) consent from participants before
subjecting them to direct and indirect forms of NLP?
Reference: Getting consent
CNHC: Code of conduct, ethics and performance
" Clients’ consent must be voluntary. That is, they must not be
under any form of pressure or undue influence..." [8]
6. Conscientious Objection : As the DWP does not appear to obtain
consent, before subjecting it's 'customers' to NLP by it's
contractors/suppliers, can you confirm that any customer would be
free to lodge a formal complaint against the DWP against it's
arbitrary use of NLP as well as submitting a formal Conscientious
Objection now or at the point of referral to any DWP contractor
that ues NLP that is not on an "entirely voluntary" basis?
7. Professional Indemnity: The DWP does not require each
practitioner of NLP, be delivered through a DWP contract, to have
Professional Indemnity insurance?
8. Insurance: The DWP does it's contractors that use NLP, to hold
insurance that indemnifies them against any DWP customer who wishes
to make a claim against the DWP and the contractor for use of NLP
on a mandatory benefit sanctions involuntary no choice basis?
9. Psychological treatment: As NLP is a psychological intervention
(treatment), please disclose details of the insurance the DWP holds
or relies upon should a DWP customer wish to make a claim against
it, on the basis that the DWP has subjected them to a form of
psychological intervention (treatment), on a mandatory benefit
sanctions involuntary no choice basis?
10: Evidence: The DWP holds no evaluation or evidence on the
effectiveness of NLP with it's 'customers'?
Yours faithfully,
Frank Zola
Footnotes
[1] 'CMHT/ IAPT'
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/c...
[2] Budget 2015
1.236
Budget 2015 also announces a package of measures to improve
employment outcomes
for people with mental health conditions. Starting from early 2016,
the government will provide online Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
(CBT) to 40,000 Employment and
Support Allowance and Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants and
individuals being
supported by Fit for Work. From summer 2015, the government will
also begin to
co-locate Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT)
therapists in over 350
Jobcentres, to provide integrated employment and mental health
support to claimants with
common mental health conditions
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/sy...
[3] 'CMHT/ IAPT'
The following qualifications are required to practice within IAPT
services:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/c...
[4] 'Sanctions: CBT and IAPT'
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/s...
[5] Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council (CNHC)
http://www.cnhc.org.uk/
[6] British Association of Therapeutic Hypnotists & NLP
practitioners (BAThH)
http://www.bathh.co.uk/about_bathh
[7] The British Institute of Hypnotherapy & NLP
http://www.britishinstituteofhypnotherap...
[8] CNHC: Code of conduct, ethics and performance
http://www.cnhc.org.uk/assets/pdf/1-058....
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mandatory_psychological_treatmen#incoming-680971
Mandatory psychological treatment, by the DWP, on a mandatory benefit sanctions involuntary no choice basis.
Frank Zola made this Freedom of Information request to Department for Work and Pensions
Dear Department for Work and Pensions,
The DWP is considering spending £21 million (£21,000,000) of public
funds to provide digital CBT (Online Supported Cognitive
Behavioural Therapy), as part of this process of
providing psychological CBT 'treatment', you require services to be
in line with:
"National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) approved
treatment"
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov....
You are also "at an early stage" [1] of planning to "co-locate
Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) therapists in
over 350 Jobcentres" [2] and require IAPT "therapist" to hold
specific "qualifications" to "practice within IAPT services" [3].
Recently you stated that all IAPT and CBT would be "entirely
voluntary"[4], implying that no benefit sanctions could be imposed
for declining to engage with IAPT and CBT facilitated via the DWP.
Taking all of the above in account, can you confirm that, in
relation to neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) delivered by DWP
contractors, that:
1. Benefit Sanctions: - Anyone referred to the mandatory NLP
'treatment' schemes you deliver through suppliers like of 'Start
Smiling Again'* and 'Vedas Recruitment & Training Ltd' are NOT
voluntary, as declining to engage in the NLP 'treatment' integrated
into these schemes can mean benefit sanctions, with losses of up to
3 years for Jobseeker's Allowance?
*£48,000 for 'Start Smiling Again' NLP - South West Wales - Stress
Management Programme
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov....
**£165,000 for 'Vedas Recruitment & Training Ltd' NLP - Entrenched
Worklesness Provision
http://data.gov.uk/data/contracts-finder...
2. Qualifications: DWP do not require DWP contractors using NLP to
have any recognised qualifications?
3. Treatment: NLP is not a 'treatment' approved by any Public
Authority?
4. CNHC: DWP do not require DWP contractors using NLP to register
with the Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council (CNHC), a
body "set up with government support" [5], that regulates members
of the British Association of Therapeutic Hypnotists & NLP
practitioners (BAThH) [6] and The British Institute of Hypnotherapy
& NLP?
5. Consent: DWP do not require DWP contractors using NLP on it's
back-to-work schemes, to obtain fully informed freely given
(voluntary) consent from participants before
subjecting them to direct and indirect forms of NLP?
Reference: Getting consent
CNHC: Code of conduct, ethics and performance
" Clients’ consent must be voluntary. That is, they must not be
under any form of pressure or undue influence..." [8]
6. Conscientious Objection : As the DWP does not appear to obtain
consent, before subjecting it's 'customers' to NLP by it's
contractors/suppliers, can you confirm that any customer would be
free to lodge a formal complaint against the DWP against it's
arbitrary use of NLP as well as submitting a formal Conscientious
Objection now or at the point of referral to any DWP contractor
that ues NLP that is not on an "entirely voluntary" basis?
7. Professional Indemnity: The DWP does not require each
practitioner of NLP, be delivered through a DWP contract, to have
Professional Indemnity insurance?
8. Insurance: The DWP does it's contractors that use NLP, to hold
insurance that indemnifies them against any DWP customer who wishes
to make a claim against the DWP and the contractor for use of NLP
on a mandatory benefit sanctions involuntary no choice basis?
9. Psychological treatment: As NLP is a psychological intervention
(treatment), please disclose details of the insurance the DWP holds
or relies upon should a DWP customer wish to make a claim against
it, on the basis that the DWP has subjected them to a form of
psychological intervention (treatment), on a mandatory benefit
sanctions involuntary no choice basis?
10: Evidence: The DWP holds no evaluation or evidence on the
effectiveness of NLP with it's 'customers'?
Yours faithfully,
Frank Zola
Footnotes
[1] 'CMHT/ IAPT'
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/c...
[2] Budget 2015
1.236
Budget 2015 also announces a package of measures to improve
employment outcomes
for people with mental health conditions. Starting from early 2016,
the government will provide online Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
(CBT) to 40,000 Employment and
Support Allowance and Jobseeker’s Allowance claimants and
individuals being
supported by Fit for Work. From summer 2015, the government will
also begin to
co-locate Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT)
therapists in over 350
Jobcentres, to provide integrated employment and mental health
support to claimants with
common mental health conditions
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/sy...
[3] 'CMHT/ IAPT'
The following qualifications are required to practice within IAPT
services:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/c...
[4] 'Sanctions: CBT and IAPT'
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/s...
[5] Complementary and Natural Healthcare Council (CNHC)
http://www.cnhc.org.uk/
[6] British Association of Therapeutic Hypnotists & NLP
practitioners (BAThH)
http://www.bathh.co.uk/about_bathh
[7] The British Institute of Hypnotherapy & NLP
http://www.britishinstituteofhypnotherap...
[8] CNHC: Code of conduct, ethics and performance
http://www.cnhc.org.uk/assets/pdf/1-058....
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DWP spends £48,000 on Chrysalis Effect, NLP, Hypnosis & Time Line Therapy - 95% success
Frank Zola made this Freedom of Information request to Department for Work and Pensions
.
From: Frank Zola
19 July 2015
Dear Department for Work and Pensions,
RE: £48,000 of Public Funds spent by DWP on Start Smiling Again's
Chrysalis Effect, NLP, Hypnosis and Time Line Therapy - South West
Wales - Stress Management Programme - with a "95%" rate of success.
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov....
With regards the self-proclaimed "Harley Street Therapist" David
Rahman of 'Start Smiling Again' (SSA) [1], he states on his website
http://startsmilingagain.com/ that
SSA is:
"Approved UK Government provider for stress and anxiety management
(SAM).
An official provider for stress and anxiety management for the UK
Government Department For Work And Pensions (DWP)."
Please disclose the documents and information you hold that confirm
you have "Approved" SSA and endorse SSA as an "official provider
for stress and anxiety management".
together with a list of other SAM providers you have "Approved" and
details of how to apply for such DWP and UK Government approval and
endorsement.
Please also disclose details of the evidence based research you
have conducted into the use of:
Chrysalis Effect – M.E. & Chronic Fatigue
http://www.thechrysaliseffect.org/
NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-ling...
Hypnosis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis
Time Line Therapy
http://www.timelinetherapy.com/
for your 'customers', per use by DWP providers like SSA for SAM.
Please also disclose any information you hold that corroborates
SSA's claim, with regards clinical depression and SAM, that being:
"95% of my clients have returned to normal health following a
battle with clinical depression" and "95% of my clients have found
the solution in Blueprint Therapy & Coaching".
Please also disclose a copy of Start Smiling Again's general, Data
Protection and Consent information and forms provided to DWP
'customers', with regards your £48,000 Stress Management Programme
contract, awarded to SSA .
Yours faithfully,
Frank Zola
[1] SSA references from
http://startsmilingagain.com/
2014 website archive
https://web.archive.org/web/201412180952...
Approved
"Approved UK Government provider for stress and anxiety management.
An official provider for stress and anxiety management for the UK
Government Department For Work And Pensions (DWP)."
http://s2.postimg.org/qq1rlah1l/approved...
Depression
http://s17.postimg.org/puw3tnrin/depress...
Harley Street
http://s24.postimg.org/cuefehqtx/harleys...
Supplier's address
"Oaktree Parc Clinic Swansea West Glamorgan SA7 9JR"
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov....
95% success
http://s13.postimg.org/63li4lqqf/image.png
Qualifications
http://s23.postimg.org/dxszsky3v/qualifi...
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That stuff is effing disgrace.
Where is the Royal College of Psychiatrists in all this? Why are they not speaking out about this fraud?
Oh, I forgot, it's currently headed by "psychiatry is at the heart of medicine" Wessely. We are entering into the glorious age of psycho-fascism.
Where is the Royal College of Psychiatrists in all this? Why are they not speaking out about this fraud?
Oh, I forgot, it's currently headed by "psychiatry is at the heart of medicine" Wessely. We are entering into the glorious age of psycho-fascism.
That stuff is effing disgrace.
Where is the Royal College of Psychiatrists in all this? Why are they not speaking out about this fraud?
Oh, I forgot, it's currently headed by "psychiatry is at the heart of medicine" Wessely. We are entering into the glorious age of psycho-fascism.
Where is the Royal College of Psychiatrists in all this? Why are they not speaking out about this fraud?
Oh, I forgot, it's currently headed by "psychiatry is at the heart of medicine" Wessely. We are entering into the glorious age of psycho-fascism.
At the height of the psychoanaysis bubble, shortly before it self destructed, they were trying treat diabetes, cancer, asthma and other diseases with psychoanalysis.
It appears that the self destruction of these belief systems requires that things get out of hand so much that even the average uninformed person can see that they've lost touch with reality.
Last edited:
.
Gov.UK Contracts Finder
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/977bdd97-bcdc-4bfe-81e9-5f219d5ebdde
South West Wales - Stress Management Programme
DEPARTMENT FOR WORK AND PENSIONS
Awarded opportunity - This means that the contract has been awarded to a supplier.
Closing date: 03 February 2015
Contract summary
Industry
Education
Location of contract
Wales
Value of contract (£)
£50,000
Published date
13 April 2015
Closing date
03 February 2015
Contract start date
13 April 2015
Contract end date
19 December 2015
Description
The Flexible Support Fund (FSF) is intended to help Jobcentre Plus (JCP) District Managers to flexibly deliver elements of our service in the way they see fit for their Districts. The JCP District of South West Wales (SWW) intends to use FSF to purchase provision to specifically assist Participants with the primary health conditions of anxiety and depression. The challenge for Providers is to work with these Participants to address the psychological and motivational barriers to employment. Provision is targeted at Participants in receipt of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA), Employment & Support Allowance (ESA) and Income Support (IS) with eligibility dependent on the primary health conditions of anxiety/depression and programme suitability.
About the buyer
Address
Department for Work and Pensions
Quarry House, Leeds
LS2 7UA
England
Email
XXX@DWP.GSI.GOV.UK
Awarded information
Supplier's name
Start Smiling Again
Value of contract (£)
£48,000
Contract start date
13 April 2015
Contract end date
19 December 2015
Supplier's address
Oaktree Parc Clinic Swansea West Glamorgan SA7 9JR
.
Gov.UK Contracts Finder
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/977bdd97-bcdc-4bfe-81e9-5f219d5ebdde
South West Wales - Stress Management Programme
DEPARTMENT FOR WORK AND PENSIONS
Awarded opportunity - This means that the contract has been awarded to a supplier.
Closing date: 03 February 2015
Contract summary
Industry
Education
Location of contract
Wales
Value of contract (£)
£50,000
Published date
13 April 2015
Closing date
03 February 2015
Contract start date
13 April 2015
Contract end date
19 December 2015
Description
The Flexible Support Fund (FSF) is intended to help Jobcentre Plus (JCP) District Managers to flexibly deliver elements of our service in the way they see fit for their Districts. The JCP District of South West Wales (SWW) intends to use FSF to purchase provision to specifically assist Participants with the primary health conditions of anxiety and depression. The challenge for Providers is to work with these Participants to address the psychological and motivational barriers to employment. Provision is targeted at Participants in receipt of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA), Employment & Support Allowance (ESA) and Income Support (IS) with eligibility dependent on the primary health conditions of anxiety/depression and programme suitability.
About the buyer
Address
Department for Work and Pensions
Quarry House, Leeds
LS2 7UA
England
XXX@DWP.GSI.GOV.UK
Awarded information
Supplier's name
Start Smiling Again
Value of contract (£)
£48,000
Contract start date
13 April 2015
Contract end date
19 December 2015
Supplier's address
Oaktree Parc Clinic Swansea West Glamorgan SA7 9JR
.
Yeah as Sean posted it's from the hilarious Monty Python "Dead parrot" sketch
Some good info there Wildcat, and well done to Mr Zola.
That the "austerity" goverment is pouring money towards these quacks is appalling. Though not suprising the ££ are there for things they decide they do want to spend on.
I think there are some within the psychotherapy world are getting uncomfortable with this, I read a few articles where there were objections being raised, so let's hope for more fuss about it.
That the "austerity" goverment is pouring money towards these quacks is appalling. Though not suprising the ££ are there for things they decide they do want to spend on.
I think there are some within the psychotherapy world are getting uncomfortable with this, I read a few articles where there were objections being raised, so let's hope for more fuss about it.
Guardian Letters April 2015
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-regime-are-profoundly-damaging-mental-health
'442 psychotherapists, counsellors and academics condemn government plans and call on Labour and other parties to denounce anti-therapeutic practices'
Austerity and a malign benefits regime are profoundly damaging mental health
Letters
Friday 17 April 2015 06.00 BST
'The profoundly disturbing psychological and quality-of-life implications of the coalition government’s cuts and policies have yet to be mentioned in the election campaign. Counsellors and psychotherapists in the public and private sectors find themselves at the coalface in responding to the effects of austerity politics on the emotional state of the nation. The past five years have seen a radical shift in the kinds of issues generating distress in our clients: increasing inequality and outright poverty, families forced to move against their wishes, and, perhaps most important, benefits claimants (including disabled and ill people) and those seeking work being subjected to a quite new, intimidatory kind of disciplinary regime.
Where this includes the linkage of social security benefits to the receipt of “state therapy”, as announced in the chancellor’s latest budget, this is totally unacceptable. “Get to work therapy” is manifestly not therapy at all. With the ominous news that Maximus (the US company replacing Atos to do work capability assessments) will also be managing the new national Fit for Work programme, it is time for the field’s key professional organisations to wake up to these malign developments, and unequivocally denounce such so-called “therapy” as damaging and professionally unethical.
More generally, the wider reality of a society thrown completely off balance by the emotional toxicity of neoliberal thinking is affecting Britain in profound ways, the distressing effects of which are often most visible in the therapist’s consulting room. This letter sounds the starting-bell for a broadly based campaign of organisations and professionals against the damage that neoliberalism is doing to the nation’s mental health. For now, we call on all the parties in this election – and particularly Labour – to make it clear that they will urgently review such anti-therapeutic practices, and appropriately refashion their much-trumpeted commitment to mental health if and when they enter government.'
Signed by the 442 psychotherapists, counsellors, academics and mental health experts (the names are on the link).
.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-regime-are-profoundly-damaging-mental-health
'442 psychotherapists, counsellors and academics condemn government plans and call on Labour and other parties to denounce anti-therapeutic practices'
Austerity and a malign benefits regime are profoundly damaging mental health
Letters
Friday 17 April 2015 06.00 BST
'The profoundly disturbing psychological and quality-of-life implications of the coalition government’s cuts and policies have yet to be mentioned in the election campaign. Counsellors and psychotherapists in the public and private sectors find themselves at the coalface in responding to the effects of austerity politics on the emotional state of the nation. The past five years have seen a radical shift in the kinds of issues generating distress in our clients: increasing inequality and outright poverty, families forced to move against their wishes, and, perhaps most important, benefits claimants (including disabled and ill people) and those seeking work being subjected to a quite new, intimidatory kind of disciplinary regime.
Where this includes the linkage of social security benefits to the receipt of “state therapy”, as announced in the chancellor’s latest budget, this is totally unacceptable. “Get to work therapy” is manifestly not therapy at all. With the ominous news that Maximus (the US company replacing Atos to do work capability assessments) will also be managing the new national Fit for Work programme, it is time for the field’s key professional organisations to wake up to these malign developments, and unequivocally denounce such so-called “therapy” as damaging and professionally unethical.
More generally, the wider reality of a society thrown completely off balance by the emotional toxicity of neoliberal thinking is affecting Britain in profound ways, the distressing effects of which are often most visible in the therapist’s consulting room. This letter sounds the starting-bell for a broadly based campaign of organisations and professionals against the damage that neoliberalism is doing to the nation’s mental health. For now, we call on all the parties in this election – and particularly Labour – to make it clear that they will urgently review such anti-therapeutic practices, and appropriately refashion their much-trumpeted commitment to mental health if and when they enter government.'
Signed by the 442 psychotherapists, counsellors, academics and mental health experts (the names are on the link).
.
.
The UK Government clearly is not interested in the warnings of psychology, mental health, and and psychotherapy experts.
Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) trainers such as David Rahman and Phil Parker do not have to observe the same ethical codes. They can and do claim anything. The most that happens is a rap on the knuckles from the Advertising Standards Authority and a demand that they change the wording on their professional websites and other advertisement.
.
The UK Government clearly is not interested in the warnings of psychology, mental health, and and psychotherapy experts.
Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) trainers such as David Rahman and Phil Parker do not have to observe the same ethical codes. They can and do claim anything. The most that happens is a rap on the knuckles from the Advertising Standards Authority and a demand that they change the wording on their professional websites and other advertisement.
.
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So a policy has been designed ("get to work therapy") that makes the disabled suffer by seeing money that could be better spent on them going into the pockets of quacks, by losing their benefits, by being denied proper medical treatment, and by being forced into jobs they can't and shouldn't be doing which could ruin their remaining health.
The authorities save money, the quacks make money, and the disabled pay for it over and over again.
Objecting to the quack of the moment could be an endless task, there have and always will be quacks, and this system is designed to reward only them (because even if one is removed, no self-respecting mental health practitioner would touch the job, so it automatically goes to the next quack, and an endless line of successive quacks, for as long as the policy is in place - there is nowhere else for the job of "get to work therapist" to go). The only real solution is to stop the policy. Objecting to it on a quack-by-quack basis, even if successful, just creates a job opportunity for a new quack.
The authorities save money, the quacks make money, and the disabled pay for it over and over again.
Objecting to the quack of the moment could be an endless task, there have and always will be quacks, and this system is designed to reward only them (because even if one is removed, no self-respecting mental health practitioner would touch the job, so it automatically goes to the next quack, and an endless line of successive quacks, for as long as the policy is in place - there is nowhere else for the job of "get to work therapist" to go). The only real solution is to stop the policy. Objecting to it on a quack-by-quack basis, even if successful, just creates a job opportunity for a new quack.
That is often at the core of societal change. People tolerate things until it reaches critical mass, then boom, society changes radically. Sadly this catches even reasonable people - everyone gets tarred and feathered. If it looks like a duck it gets plucked ... pity about plucking the geese, swans and pigeons.
I like the term psycho-fascism. I do not think its that bad everywhere, but then again it rarely is.
I like the term psycho-fascism.
I do not think its that bad everywhere, but then again it rarely is.
95% cure rate eh ? and why is that ? Im gonna guess that anyone who reacts badly to his claims that they are or should already have been cured by his process and are now gonna be kicked off benefits/pension will then be reclassified as having textbook mental health problems and (ironically enough) not actual CFS ?
Relabeling and redefining terms and then selling based on using the redefintions is stock in trade of this approach. It always sounds reasonable, and they always have a fallback position - it was you who got it wrong by not carefully reading what they said. So for example the PACE trial did get a whole lot of patients to recovery, provided you realize that recovery can mean severe disability. Its your fault if you did not understand the last part.