Folinic acid results in extreme drowsiness and brainfog

jason30

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Hi all,

Due a b12 deficiency I have started with b12 hydroxycobalamin injections.
After the 5th injection I took for the first time in the evening 1 Folinic acid ( calcium salt) lozenge (seeking health) 800ug.
I took this with potassium, magnesium and himalaya salt.

A much better sleep and the next morning a good feeling , but in the afternoon/evening the extreme fatigue, drowsiness and brainfog started. It's now there for 4 days, it triggered CFS.

Since I need folate because of the b12 injection, I wonder what could be the cause?

A search shows that people with COMT have issues with converting folinic acid.
I do have COMT, as well as MTHFR.
But how can I be sure if this is the case? Since my sleep gets better I believe I do convert it?
Maybe it's a detox reaction.

Does somebody have any experience / tips? Because I am reluctant to take the next b12 injection without folinic acid.

Thanks in advance.
 
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xebex

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Hi @jason30 just to be clear, everyone has COMT and MTHFR, it depends what alleles you have and whether you are Hetero or homo for them to determine how your body may or may not respond to bvits.

So if you are COMT met/met (slow to breakdown catechols) you may struggle with methyl folate and Folinic acid might be a better option (not folic acid as that is synthetic and seems a no go for most people) you would also do better with adeno or hydroxy b12.

if you are COMT Val/Val (fast to break down catechols) you’d probably do better with methyl folate especially if you are also homozygous for the MTHFR.

IF you are homeozygous for Mthfr you probably shouldn’t take folinic acid at all and ONLY take methyl folate and methyl bvits.

However in my experience (I am COMT met/met and heterozygous for mthfr c677) I found no combination that was helpful because my MTHFR wanted methyl but my COMT doesn’t.

I abandoned all methylation protocol’s as it just seems far to risky to me with way too many side effects and set backs.
 

Judee

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I'm not totally well versed with the whole methylation line of treatment but I have seen other threads (actually lots of them) where people were not doing well on it.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/hydroxy-b12-causing-sedation.76924/#post-2216361

There was a doctor on this thread who made some comments about how she thought people were doing it all wrong. I can't remember what she said but maybe you might find it helpful. Her posts are under the user name Bodymindspirit77.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...working-cant-find-the-missing-cofactor.76310/

One more thing is a doctor on yt mentioned that SIBO bacteria also use methylation. Maybe you're okay with the injections but when you actually take something by mouth it's "fertilizing" (his word for it) the bad guys in your digestive track. ??

Edit: Here's a page of that doctor's posts as it's difficult to find them sometimes. You may want to go back to some of her first comments as well. Maybe something she posted earlier will answer your question: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/search/650028/ (When she first joined PR she went by the name Drhouse_Italy.)
 
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jason30

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Hi @jason30 just to be clear, everyone has COMT and MTHFR, it depends what alleles you have and whether you are Hetero or homo for them to determine how your body may or may not respond to bvits.

So if you are COMT met/met (slow to breakdown catechols) you may struggle with methyl folate and Folinic acid might be a better option (not folic acid as that is synthetic and seems a no go for most people) you would also do better with adeno or hydroxy b12.

if you are COMT Val/Val (fast to break down catechols) you’d probably do better with methyl folate especially if you are also homozygous for the MTHFR.

IF you are homeozygous for Mthfr you probably shouldn’t take folinic acid at all and ONLY take methyl folate and methyl bvits.

However in my experience (I am COMT met/met and heterozygous for mthfr c677) I found no combination that was helpful because my MTHFR wanted methyl but my COMT doesn’t.

I abandoned all methylation protocol’s as it just seems far to risky to me with way too many side effects and set backs.
Apologies, I wasn't clearly.

I have 2 heterozygous (yellow) mutations on MTHFR.
  • MTHFR C677T: +/- heterozygous mutation
  • MTHFR A1298C: +/- heterozygous mutation
And COMT met/met (+/+).

So I am in the same situation as you, MTHFR wants methyl but COMT doesn't.

But I have no choice, deficient in b12 and probably also on folate.

Do you know why COMT met/met doesnt like methyls? Are methyls inhibiting comt?

Thanks for thinking along.
 

jason30

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I'm not totally well versed with the whole methylation line of treatment but I have seen other threads (actually lots of them) where people were not doing well on it.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/hydroxy-b12-causing-sedation.76924/#post-2216361

There was a doctor on this thread who made some comments about how she thought people were doing it all wrong. I can't remember what she said but maybe you might find it helpful. Her posts are under the user name Bodymindspirit77.

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...working-cant-find-the-missing-cofactor.76310/

One more thing is a doctor on yt mentioned that SIBO bacteria also use methylation. Maybe you're okay with the injections but when you actually take something by mouth it's "fertilizing" (his word for it) the bad guys in your digestive track. ??

Edit: Here's a page of that doctor's posts as it's difficult to find them sometimes. You may want to go back to some of her first comments as well. Maybe something she posted earlier will answer your question: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/search/650028/ (When she first joined PR she went by the name Drhouse_Italy.)
Thank you for thinking along, this is great information. I will look further into it.
Very interesting as I do have SIBO. Thanks again.
 

xebex

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Apologies, I wasn't clearly.

I have 2 heterozygous (yellow) mutations on MTHFR.
  • MTHFR C677T: +/- heterozygous mutation
  • MTHFR A1298C: +/- heterozygous mutation
And COMT met/met (+/+).

So I am in the same situation as you, MTHFR wants methyl but COMT doesn't.

But I have no choice, deficient in b12 and probably also on folate.

Do you know why COMT met/met doesnt like methyls? Are methyls inhibiting comt?

Thanks for thinking along.
Thanks for clarifying - it sucks that’s your situation is the same as me!

I’ll post a couple of links below that might give you some ideas as to what’s going on.

I’m not entirely sure why we can’t take methyl vits but anecdotal evidence suggests we don’t do well with it. i have had an awful time with methyl vits so I feel your pain!

Taking lithium orotate might help get b12 Into your cells better - just a thought but it’s controversial. I take just 1mg and have found it’s helped with emotional lability but not PEM. however emotional lability is part of ME due to our issues with our genes it’s all linked!


https://ndnr.com/pediatrics/move-over-mthfr/

https://www.seekinghealth.com/collections/dirty-genes-comt-slow-support

hope that helps
 

JES

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I'm wondering where you got the information that folic acid (or any form of folate) was necessary to take with B12. Plenty of people use B12 alone to correct for a deficiency just fine. I know there is a common wisdom that B vitamins should be taken together, but that actually relates to all B vitamins, not just B12 and folate, but I never found much evidence behind it.

The RDA for folate is 400 ug, so 800 ug doesn't sound very high. Methylfolate supplements often come in several mg dosages, which really had a negative effect on me. I'd try to cut the dosage for example in half and see if that helps. Maybe you'll react better to the active forms, but folinic acid is actually a more active form than plain folic acid, so maybe conversion is not the issue here.
 

jason30

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Thanks for clarifying - it sucks that’s your situation is the same as me!

I’ll post a couple of links below that might give you some ideas as to what’s going on.

I’m not entirely sure why we can’t take methyl vits but anecdotal evidence suggests we don’t do well with it. i have had an awful time with methyl vits so I feel your pain!

Taking lithium orotate might help get b12 Into your cells better - just a thought but it’s controversial. I take just 1mg and have found it’s helped with emotional lability but not PEM. however emotional lability is part of ME due to our issues with our genes it’s all linked!


https://ndnr.com/pediatrics/move-over-mthfr/

https://www.seekinghealth.com/collections/dirty-genes-comt-slow-support

hope that helps
Thanks again.
We can consider taking Niacin to break down too much of methyls.

Regarding activation of COMT, someone gave me the following reply / tips. I thought I would share it here as well, maybe it helps someone. I am definately gonna try BCAA and eliminate foods that inhibit COMT.

" Taking a bcaa (branch chained amino acid) combo is a great way to balance out a comt met/met mutation. With a met/met you have two methionines in your enzyme that breaks down your neurotransmitters. This leads to a high intolerance for methyl based supplements and any drinks or foods that are dopamine increasers. Someone with a "regular" comt is valine methionine. So to fix a comt methionine methionine enzyme you take a bcaa which contains valine to change your enzyme into more of a valine methionine combo instead. This in turn increases your tolerance of methyl based supplements and anything diet wise that is a dopamine increaser. So you essentially turn yourself into a comt valine methionine "regular"! we just started this therapy with my wife, a comt met/met, and it has had a noticeable effect!

A bcaa supplement will really help with your COMT +/+ mutation. With that mutation your brain has a hard time breaking down dopamine and norepinephrine. This can lead to an excess of neurotransmitters. Excess norepinephrine can be a source of anxiety and lack of focus. With a bcaa you lower your overall tyrosine level. Tyrosine becomes dopamine which becomes norepinephrine. So by lowering your tyrosine you'll end up lowering your dopamine and norepinephrine and that will take a load off your COMT enzyme allowing it to work better.

When I started to eliminate foods that inhibit COMT and other foods that stimulate dopamine + implemented SAM-e supplement (to help methylate catechols), catechols dropped noticeably, but motivation and focus got elevated considerably."
 

jason30

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I'm wondering where you got the information that folic acid (or any form of folate) was necessary to take with B12. Plenty of people use B12 alone to correct for a deficiency just fine. I know there is a common wisdom that B vitamins should be taken together, but that actually relates to all B vitamins, not just B12 and folate, but I never found much evidence behind it.

The RDA for folate is 400 ug, so 800 ug doesn't sound very high. Methylfolate supplements often come in several mg dosages, which really had a negative effect on me. I'd try to cut the dosage for example in half and see if that helps. Maybe you'll react better to the active forms, but folinic acid is actually a more active form than plain folic acid, so maybe conversion is not the issue here.
Thanks, I am trying it again now with lower doses.
 

xebex

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Thanks again.
We can consider taking Niacin to break down too much of methyls.

Regarding activation of COMT, someone gave me the following reply / tips. I thought I would share it here as well, maybe it helps someone. I am definately gonna try BCAA and eliminate foods that inhibit COMT.
Very useful info thanks! I did recently try BCAA and it made me incredibly sleepy but in a pleasant way - I wonder if I should cut it down to 2.5 grams or if I keep taking it I’ll get used to it and stop being sleepy?