Folate Issues & Methylation
- Thread starter maddietod
- Start date
- Messages
- 514
- Likes
- 54
This is very interesting but I happen to know that excess of cadmium causes loss of copper as they compete for digestion. So now I am wondering why you didn't state that instead of niacin? And I am also wondering how you can tell anything about vitamins from hair? Minerals, yes, but the B vitamins won't appear in hair, surely?
Still I have been hearing about more people being deficient in B2 lately and I am starting to wonder about it. Usually when my 'wonder about it' antennae goes up it means there really is something important there.
Rydra
Still I have been hearing about more people being deficient in B2 lately and I am starting to wonder about it. Usually when my 'wonder about it' antennae goes up it means there really is something important there.
Rydra
- Messages
- 514
- Likes
- 54
I actually got into this thread to post that Metametrix came out with a UMFA test...(it tests UnMetabolized Folic Acid levels)! Check it out here: http://www.metametrix.com/test-menu/profiles/vitamins/umfa
I'm resurrecting this thread, rather than tie up Freddd's new one (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...assium-ratios-and-startup&p=258635#post258635) with this stuff. It all got too complicated, and my brain went downhill.........and I think I'm ready to work on this again. Does anybody else have updates on what you're doing and how it's working?
Freddd replied this to me on the above thread:
Hi Madietodd,
"I have never taken adb12 or l-carnitine. I got sidetracked figuring out potassium, and then I stopped sleeping, and my brain fell out. Remind me why I might want to test them?"
Well, they represent 1/2 of the possible b12 deficiencies, adb12-CNS and adb12-body with l-carnitine fumarate being a critical cofactor for ATP gneration. When the deficiency is in the brain it can cause damage and malfunctions galore. This specific deficiency appears to tie in with hyper responsveness to some of the nutrients causing both nerve startup and nerve ATP startiup to be intolerable. There is also a set of symptoms associated with it and possible progression to serious diseases. I don't know when it becomes irreversible. The damage continues increasing until it is reveresed. At some point the neurological damage becomes permannet and not repairable.
I'm going to go back to low carb eating (I tested as needing this) + 500mcg mb12 + 1800mg potassium + Solgar before meals (amount TBD). I'll add the l-carnitine as soon as I find the dosage. I'll trial adb12 once I get a few days of stability under my belt.
FYI, my symptom list is at post# 15 on this thread.
I keep track of my potassium levels with this meter: http://www.amazon.com/Horiba-Cardy-...2HS2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335787003&sr=8-1
Freddd replied this to me on the above thread:
Hi Madietodd,
"I have never taken adb12 or l-carnitine. I got sidetracked figuring out potassium, and then I stopped sleeping, and my brain fell out. Remind me why I might want to test them?"
Well, they represent 1/2 of the possible b12 deficiencies, adb12-CNS and adb12-body with l-carnitine fumarate being a critical cofactor for ATP gneration. When the deficiency is in the brain it can cause damage and malfunctions galore. This specific deficiency appears to tie in with hyper responsveness to some of the nutrients causing both nerve startup and nerve ATP startiup to be intolerable. There is also a set of symptoms associated with it and possible progression to serious diseases. I don't know when it becomes irreversible. The damage continues increasing until it is reveresed. At some point the neurological damage becomes permannet and not repairable.
I'm going to go back to low carb eating (I tested as needing this) + 500mcg mb12 + 1800mg potassium + Solgar before meals (amount TBD). I'll add the l-carnitine as soon as I find the dosage. I'll trial adb12 once I get a few days of stability under my belt.
FYI, my symptom list is at post# 15 on this thread.
I keep track of my potassium levels with this meter: http://www.amazon.com/Horiba-Cardy-...2HS2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335787003&sr=8-1
I've added 1x 500mg L-Carnitine, and 3 x 800mcg metafolin (Solgar) in addition to 800mcg in my B-Complex. I've also added 100mg Co-Q10 to support the L-Carnitine.
Yesterday I dumped one 10,000mcg capsule of adb12 into 10 teaspoons of water, in an amber bottle. I took 1 tsp yesterday (held it in my mouth). I'm debating whether to take this every day until I notice a response, or to wait a few days and take 2, etc until I feel something. Anybody got experience with this? [I'm keeping the solution in a dark place.]
The only experiment left, after all this settles in, is to increase my dose of mb12, currently at 500mcg.
Are there any interactions I should know about? Meaning supplements that should NOT be taken at the same time of day?
Yesterday I dumped one 10,000mcg capsule of adb12 into 10 teaspoons of water, in an amber bottle. I took 1 tsp yesterday (held it in my mouth). I'm debating whether to take this every day until I notice a response, or to wait a few days and take 2, etc until I feel something. Anybody got experience with this? [I'm keeping the solution in a dark place.]
The only experiment left, after all this settles in, is to increase my dose of mb12, currently at 500mcg.
Are there any interactions I should know about? Meaning supplements that should NOT be taken at the same time of day?
Hi Madietodd,
I found that adb12 is totally unstable in water. It falls apart with any light other than dim deep red and it falls apart in water in days in total darkness in the refrigerator. Only wet some of the powder each day putting it directly under your tongue.
If you end up hypersensitive to these things you may want to titrate your l-carnitine fumarate from 0.1mg (that is correct, 1/10 of 1 mg). Don't take CoQ10 at all during all this. It can cause your BP to shoot up to over 200/120.
I found that adb12 is totally unstable in water. It falls apart with any light other than dim deep red and it falls apart in water in days in total darkness in the refrigerator. Only wet some of the powder each day putting it directly under your tongue.
If you end up hypersensitive to these things you may want to titrate your l-carnitine fumarate from 0.1mg (that is correct, 1/10 of 1 mg). Don't take CoQ10 at all during all this. It can cause your BP to shoot up to over 200/120.
I think I have turned out hypersensitive, to either the adb12 (I stopped taking it after 6 x 1/10) or the fumarate (I didn't take it yesterday; we'll see). I get tolerable to awful bloating, gut pain, sweating, and then diarrhea, once a day. At different times.
My blood pressure tends to be low, and I haven't felt any symptoms other than the above. Is it still best to avoid CoQ 10?
I will follow your ideas and stop the CoQ 10, and titrate the fumarate, taking it under my tongue.
Is there any chance that a reaction like this is due to a successful immune system activation? Killing off lots of bugs and having trouble moving them out of my system?
Always looking for a bright side!
Madie
My blood pressure tends to be low, and I haven't felt any symptoms other than the above. Is it still best to avoid CoQ 10?
I will follow your ideas and stop the CoQ 10, and titrate the fumarate, taking it under my tongue.
Is there any chance that a reaction like this is due to a successful immune system activation? Killing off lots of bugs and having trouble moving them out of my system?
Always looking for a bright side!
Madie
HI Madie,
I would still avoid the CoQ10 until things are more stable. The diarhea and gut problems can be a direct result of the adb12 and carnitine. it appears to really speed up and intensify parastalsis during startup. A lower dose can be titrated by using the effects on thedigestive system. I don't think that it has to do with immune startup yet. That is awfully quick and that seems to happen much more slowly. However, you may have become hypersensitive as that can happen when one has a double or triple deficiency and then fulfilles 2 of them, the third one can be terribly hyper. On the l-carnitine fumarate, you might try starting with one single crumb out of the capsule and working up from that. You want to have a minimum effect that you can notice but not more. It can be slowly increased by a crumb each 2-3 days. You may also find that this provokes a rapid increase in healing and need for Metafolin and even more potassium. It is possible to get all these things balanced out but it is tricky. I hadn't realised just how delecate and tricky this can be for certain of these deficiencies. How much mb12 are you taking currently?
I would still avoid the CoQ10 until things are more stable. The diarhea and gut problems can be a direct result of the adb12 and carnitine. it appears to really speed up and intensify parastalsis during startup. A lower dose can be titrated by using the effects on thedigestive system. I don't think that it has to do with immune startup yet. That is awfully quick and that seems to happen much more slowly. However, you may have become hypersensitive as that can happen when one has a double or triple deficiency and then fulfilles 2 of them, the third one can be terribly hyper. On the l-carnitine fumarate, you might try starting with one single crumb out of the capsule and working up from that. You want to have a minimum effect that you can notice but not more. It can be slowly increased by a crumb each 2-3 days. You may also find that this provokes a rapid increase in healing and need for Metafolin and even more potassium. It is possible to get all these things balanced out but it is tricky. I hadn't realised just how delecate and tricky this can be for certain of these deficiencies. How much mb12 are you taking currently?
Hmm. Long before adding the LCF or the adb12, I stopped being able to take magnesium or vitamin C. I had used magnesium for ages to create peristalsis, but the active protocol (mb12 + cofactors) fixed that to the point where magnesium or C tips me into diarrhea. So I was already on the edge with that; I guess that gives me a good feedback loop for LCF + adb12.
On another thread you gave me information about metafolin, suggesting I titrate up according to metafolin-specific effects, to probably 3200mcg. I haven't found any metafolin-specific effects, despite lots of experimentation with doses. At the moment I'm taking 1 B-Complex am/pm, and 1 Solgar 3 x a day. [so that's 3200mcg]
I'm taking 1/2 ET mb12 3 x a day, recently raised from 2 x a day. I've skipped the adb12 and LCF yesterday and today; today is my first day with some pain and bloating, but no diarrhea.
SO, my plan is no CoQ10, 3200 metafolin and 1500 mb12, and daily (?) .1mg adb12 with .1 L-Carnitine Fumarate. Do I titrate these lock-step, every 3 days or so? Potassium stays at 600mg 3x a day, and I test my levels at least 2ce daily. [Because no matter what I do, I stay low-normal.]
If there's a list of low-metafolin symptoms, distinct from potassium etc, I haven't been able to find it. Anybody got a link?
On another thread you gave me information about metafolin, suggesting I titrate up according to metafolin-specific effects, to probably 3200mcg. I haven't found any metafolin-specific effects, despite lots of experimentation with doses. At the moment I'm taking 1 B-Complex am/pm, and 1 Solgar 3 x a day. [so that's 3200mcg]
I'm taking 1/2 ET mb12 3 x a day, recently raised from 2 x a day. I've skipped the adb12 and LCF yesterday and today; today is my first day with some pain and bloating, but no diarrhea.
SO, my plan is no CoQ10, 3200 metafolin and 1500 mb12, and daily (?) .1mg adb12 with .1 L-Carnitine Fumarate. Do I titrate these lock-step, every 3 days or so? Potassium stays at 600mg 3x a day, and I test my levels at least 2ce daily. [Because no matter what I do, I stay low-normal.]
If there's a list of low-metafolin symptoms, distinct from potassium etc, I haven't been able to find it. Anybody got a link?
Hi Fred,
I've been on Methyl b12 for a year now. I have been reluctant to try Co-q10 again with the methylb12 btI just got a sample and am thinking of trying it. Just wonderd if you have an opinion of the safety of combining them after a year of being on methyl b12.
I've been on Methyl b12 for a year now. I have been reluctant to try Co-q10 again with the methylb12 btI just got a sample and am thinking of trying it. Just wonderd if you have an opinion of the safety of combining them after a year of being on methyl b12.
Hi Madie,
Not lockstep on that titration. After you have determined a level of LCF below a problem level you can do several doses a day and the next day start at the total of that amount and keep increasing until you get effectiveness without overdoing it. I had that start very low because some folks exhibit extreme, and I mean really extreme, response. It's good to here things are going well on Metafolin at least. It doesn't sound like you have any paradoxical folate deficiency which is great for you.
Not lockstep on that titration. After you have determined a level of LCF below a problem level you can do several doses a day and the next day start at the total of that amount and keep increasing until you get effectiveness without overdoing it. I had that start very low because some folks exhibit extreme, and I mean really extreme, response. It's good to here things are going well on Metafolin at least. It doesn't sound like you have any paradoxical folate deficiency which is great for you.
Hi, Fred,
OK, figuring out the new plan. Background: this is early am day 3 since my last adb12, LCF. I'm mildly nauseous still, sweating in cool rooms, and feel like I was kicked in the gut.....but it's better.
1. Can I add the adb12, and the LCF, to a carrier like powdered sugar? I could then measure so 1/8 tsp = one dose (once my dose gets high enough), and I could hold the sugar under my tongue (adb12 only).
2. Best to start these up again together?
3. What is my starting dose and titration schedule for adb12? LCF starts at a crumb.
4. I'm going to reduce my B12 Infusion to 1mg (from 1.5) and try the Jarrow again, starting at 1/8 tab. I'm taking 3200mcg metafolin already, and I'll increase that if I get my 'irritable hater' response to the Jarrow.
5. As always, I'm watching my potassium levels.
6. No CoQ10, all other basic cofactors. But no vitamin C or magnesium; they trigger the gut issues.
Thanks for your input.
EDIT, add: " After you have determined a level of LCF below a problem level you can do several doses a day and the next day start at the total of that amount and keep increasing until you get effectiveness without overdoing it."
This sounds like you're saying: once I get to a safe dose of LCF, start taking several doses a day......um.......won't that crash me?
OK, figuring out the new plan. Background: this is early am day 3 since my last adb12, LCF. I'm mildly nauseous still, sweating in cool rooms, and feel like I was kicked in the gut.....but it's better.
1. Can I add the adb12, and the LCF, to a carrier like powdered sugar? I could then measure so 1/8 tsp = one dose (once my dose gets high enough), and I could hold the sugar under my tongue (adb12 only).
2. Best to start these up again together?
3. What is my starting dose and titration schedule for adb12? LCF starts at a crumb.
4. I'm going to reduce my B12 Infusion to 1mg (from 1.5) and try the Jarrow again, starting at 1/8 tab. I'm taking 3200mcg metafolin already, and I'll increase that if I get my 'irritable hater' response to the Jarrow.
5. As always, I'm watching my potassium levels.
6. No CoQ10, all other basic cofactors. But no vitamin C or magnesium; they trigger the gut issues.
Thanks for your input.
EDIT, add: " After you have determined a level of LCF below a problem level you can do several doses a day and the next day start at the total of that amount and keep increasing until you get effectiveness without overdoing it."
This sounds like you're saying: once I get to a safe dose of LCF, start taking several doses a day......um.......won't that crash me?
Hi Madie,
Taking all your basics vitamins and minerals, omega3, ETC. Then start titrating mb12 and adb12, at crumbs. Don't start the TMG or L-carnitine fumarate yet. As you adjust up (adb12/mb12) when the specific effect from the dose is not terribly noticeable, perhaps each day a by a crumb every few days or however you adjust. We want to get these in the system and bring the accelerator down to only the carnitine for starters. So while you are titrating the adb12 and mb12, also adjust the potassium and Metafolin. Those don't need to be changed because the intent is not to stop healing. Then after you have reached reasonable doses of b12s and have potassium and Metafolin balanced, then we will start with the critical cofactors like l-carnitne fumarate and TMG. I'll re-explain the LCF aspect you didn't get when the time comes.
Taking all your basics vitamins and minerals, omega3, ETC. Then start titrating mb12 and adb12, at crumbs. Don't start the TMG or L-carnitine fumarate yet. As you adjust up (adb12/mb12) when the specific effect from the dose is not terribly noticeable, perhaps each day a by a crumb every few days or however you adjust. We want to get these in the system and bring the accelerator down to only the carnitine for starters. So while you are titrating the adb12 and mb12, also adjust the potassium and Metafolin. Those don't need to be changed because the intent is not to stop healing. Then after you have reached reasonable doses of b12s and have potassium and Metafolin balanced, then we will start with the critical cofactors like l-carnitne fumarate and TMG. I'll re-explain the LCF aspect you didn't get when the time comes.
Hi, Fred,
I've already been on Enzymatic Therapy mb12 for a very long time, and I do fine on it. [It doesn't increase energy, memory, or motivation, but brain fog is gone.]
I'm thinking I'll keep that at 1 per day, split dose, and add the Jarrow and adb12 at the rate you recommend. I'll stop the L-Carnitine. I don't kow what TMG is.
I've already been on Enzymatic Therapy mb12 for a very long time, and I do fine on it. [It doesn't increase energy, memory, or motivation, but brain fog is gone.]
I'm thinking I'll keep that at 1 per day, split dose, and add the Jarrow and adb12 at the rate you recommend. I'll stop the L-Carnitine. I don't kow what TMG is.
I'm bumping this question - I think it got lost.
So today starts week 3 of daily diarrhea, where it feels like I empty out the entire contents of my digestive system over an hour or so. I've never had this before - I used to tend towards constipation. It was all very painful during the first week or so, but now it doesn't hurt at all, and there are no other symptoms (eg fever).
I'm wondering if it could be related to taking potassium but no magnesium. I took magnesium for maybe a year because it was the only thing that got my digestion moving. Something about the switch to the AMP fixed this but kept me right on the edge, so I stopped the mag.
I also tried adding L-Carnitine F, adb12, and tiny-dose jarrow mb12. The timing indicated that one or all were the cause of this problem. But I went off them a few days ago.
Well, I went off the L-Carnitine completely, and kept up micro-doses of adb12 and jarrow.
So today I'm off the adb12 and jarrow. I took only 2 potassium with breakfast (instead of 6), with 250mg magnesium in a calc/mag tablet. I plan to spread the potassium out in tiny doses through the day, testing with my meter, and if my gut allows, I'll take the second calc/mag with dinner.
Anybody with ideas about a relationship between potassium and magnesium, and also ideas about their relationship to gut transit time........please help!
I'm wondering if it could be related to taking potassium but no magnesium. I took magnesium for maybe a year because it was the only thing that got my digestion moving. Something about the switch to the AMP fixed this but kept me right on the edge, so I stopped the mag.
I also tried adding L-Carnitine F, adb12, and tiny-dose jarrow mb12. The timing indicated that one or all were the cause of this problem. But I went off them a few days ago.
Well, I went off the L-Carnitine completely, and kept up micro-doses of adb12 and jarrow.
So today I'm off the adb12 and jarrow. I took only 2 potassium with breakfast (instead of 6), with 250mg magnesium in a calc/mag tablet. I plan to spread the potassium out in tiny doses through the day, testing with my meter, and if my gut allows, I'll take the second calc/mag with dinner.
Anybody with ideas about a relationship between potassium and magnesium, and also ideas about their relationship to gut transit time........please help!
Hi Madietodd;
One of the many actions of magnesium is that it inhibits the loss of potassium from inside blood cells. Potassium is most active intracellularly.
Potassium and Magnesium can act as propellents to food in the gut, especially if not balanced with other electrolytes, such as sodium. This imbalance could cause diarrhea.
I've read of people having diarrhea when taking B12/ Folate, and I wonder if another cofactor could be missing. I've been reading about zinc and how it is necessary to make folate bioavailable.
Also, zinc has been used effectively against diarrhea. Researchers are still figuring out the mechanisms, but it looks like there are many, such as : electrolyte balance, gut mucosal integrity, immunity, gene expression, and oxidative stress. It's a busy element. Maybe it could help?
One of the many actions of magnesium is that it inhibits the loss of potassium from inside blood cells. Potassium is most active intracellularly.
Potassium and Magnesium can act as propellents to food in the gut, especially if not balanced with other electrolytes, such as sodium. This imbalance could cause diarrhea.
I've read of people having diarrhea when taking B12/ Folate, and I wonder if another cofactor could be missing. I've been reading about zinc and how it is necessary to make folate bioavailable.
Also, zinc has been used effectively against diarrhea. Researchers are still figuring out the mechanisms, but it looks like there are many, such as : electrolyte balance, gut mucosal integrity, immunity, gene expression, and oxidative stress. It's a busy element. Maybe it could help?
Thanks, Crux. I did a little online searching this afternoon and also came up with zinc. I didn't see any information about how much, so I just took one 50mg pill. I've also started drinking the recommended electrolyte water: 1 liter water, 1/2-1 teaspoon salt (I'm using sea salt), 2 tablespoons sugar. Unfortunately, whenever I eat or drink, it goes right through.......but I'm hopefully putting in more than I'm losing.