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FMT (poo pills) released commercially

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,845
Location
Brisbane, Australia
$635 for the equivalent of one diy poo transplant! You'd need deep pockets to follow the protocol of one FMT a day for 10 consecutive days for anything other than C. diff.
 

SB_1108

Senior Member
Messages
315
$635 for the equivalent of one diy poo transplant! You'd need deep pockets to follow the protocol of one FMT a day for 10 consecutive days for anything other than C. diff.
From my understanding it is $635 for 30 pills - thats less than $22 a pill.

Several years ago this treatment would cost a patient $20k as they would have to go to Australia to see Dr. Thomas Borody at the Centre for Digestive Disease. He was the only knowledgable physician to administer transplants at the time. We have come a long way... eventually the costs will be more affordable but this is already a huge improvement.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,845
Location
Brisbane, Australia
From my understanding it is $635 for 30 pills - thats less than $22 a pill.

Several years ago this treatment would cost a patient $20k as they would have to go to Australia to see Dr. Thomas Borody at the Centre for Digestive Disease. He was the only knowledgable physician to administer transplants at the time. We have come a long way... eventually the costs will be more affordable but this is already a huge improvement.
Yes, but the dosage is this "The recommended dose for treatment of rCDI is 30 capsules, swallowed consecutively in a single session", so only one course per bottle. CDD is similarly priced now at about $6500 for a ten day course of FMT's if you only need enema's.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,779
I expect it won't be long before physicians like Dr De Meirleir start using these FMT pills for ME/CFS patients.

According to a study by Dr Thomas Borody et al at the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia, 58% of ME/CFS patients with IBS given bacteriotherapy (but not FMT) achieved resolution from their ME/CFS symptoms (of sleep deprivation, lethargy/fatigue). And this resolution in symptoms has been sustained for two decades to date, according to the study.

However, the study does not indicate the initial severity of ME/CFS the patients had, ie, mild, moderate or severe ME/CFS.

Also, the Borody study implanted cultured gut bacteria (Bacteroidetes, Clostridia, and E. coli) into the colon, rather than a fecal microbiota transplant. So that's not quite the same as FMT.

And interestingly, all 4 of the patients in the study that had ME/CFS alone (with no concurrent gastrointestinal symptoms like IBS) failed to respond to the fecal transplant.

There is a thread on the Borody study here. But note that at Borody's own clinic, the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia, he does not appear offer bacteriotherapy or FMT treatment for ME/CFS. According to the website, he treats ulcerative colitis and IBS with FMT, but not ME/CFS. So his study claims to have found an amazing cure for ME/CFS with IBS, but he is not offering this treatment at his clinic.

So these FMT pills could become another useful treatment for ME/CFS patients.



It looks like you cannot buy the FMT fecal microbiota transplant pills yourself as a patient; you need to do it through a doctor. From the Openbiome FMT website:
Physicians and researchers interested in learning more about ordering and availability can contact OpenBiome at capsules@openbiome.org for more details. As per the policy for all methods of administration, OpenBiome only ships FMT material to physicians for the treatment of rCDI, unless the procedure is being performed under an IND.
Note: IND = investigational new drug.
 
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SB_1108

Senior Member
Messages
315
According to a study by Dr Thomas Borody et al at the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia, 58% of ME/CFS patients with IBS given a fecal transplant (bacteriotherapy) achieved resolution from their ME/CFS symptoms (of sleep deprivation, lethargy/fatigue). And this resolution in symptoms has been sustained for two decades to date, according to the study.

Just wanted to link the study for those interested: http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publicati...robiome and its role in CFS - ACNEM paper.pdf
 

Seven7

Seven
Messages
3,444
Location
USA
What would it take to let our Experts know and see if any of them want to open a clinical trial. Due to the interest in this therapy? Maybe we can put some Blog articles out about it???
 

Rrrr

Senior Member
Messages
1,591
personal experience shows that fecal transplants (via enemas, 10 days in a row) did not help my ME, but worked for constipation. and an ME friend went from only tolerating 3 foods, literally, to eating all types of food, just from fecal transplants (enemas). so that means these poop pills would likely work for constipation and some types of food intolerances too.

NOTE TO DOCTORS: why not see if you can order from the company (OpenBiome) these for your patients who need them, even if they don't have c diff...?
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
my latest uBiome test shows only 29 species present. Yes, i have ulcerartive colitis as well, so my situation is more complex, but I could really do with these pills. Shame i cant get hold of them.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,779
The Openbiome website provides a MAP of doctors in the US who use fecal microbiota transplant (bacteriotherapy) to treat patients with Clostridium difficile gut infections. These doctors are able to treat such patients using the Openbiome FMT pills.

I am wondering whether any of these doctors might be persuaded to treat ME/CFS patients. I believe doctors treating ME/CFS patients with FMT pills would be required to file an IND (Investigational New Drug) application, but OpenBiome have made this easy to do (see this page).

Openbiome say that:
We provide microbiota preparations for FMT to over 450 healthcare institutions across the U.S. and Europe.
Ref: 1
However, I could not find map or list of the European fecal transplant doctors who would be eligible to use the Openbiome FTM pills, just the US map above.

Incidentally, Openbiome supply fecal transplants in three forms:
FMT G3 capsules for taking orally
FMT for delivery via enema into the lower gastrointestinal tract
FMT for delivery via nasogastric tube into the upper gastrointestinal tract
Ref: 1


From the research perspective, this is interesting:
Clinical Trial Design

OpenBiome’s clinical team is uniquely positioned to support clinical trial design, using aggregated lessons from across our network of hundreds of hospitals and dozens of FMT trials that we have participated in. Early engagement is particularly useful to enable our team of clinicians and scientists to deeply engage in the design process.

Ref: 1
Thus if one of the ME/CFS doctors or researchers wanted to set up a study for treating ME/CFS patients with the Openbiome FMT pills, it looks like the scientists at Openbiome would be very interested in helping and supporting such a study.


For research in general, OpenBiome say:
OpenBiome is dedicated to expanding safe access to fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) and catalyzing research into the human microbiome.
Ref: 1

We are currently supporting 10 clinical and translational research studies investigating the effects of FMT on a variety of microbiome-associated diseases. Highlights include:

• The impact of FMP capsules and placebo capsules on adult diarrhea-predominant irritable bowel syndrome.
• FMT ... in the prevention of endoscopic recurrence of Crohn's Disease in adults.
• The impact of FMT on active pediatric ulcerative colitis.

Ref: 1
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,779
I spoke to KDM about this and he said that in his experience the relief is only temporary, indicating an underlying immune dysfunction.

Did KDM happen to mention how long the temporary improvements last for? I am thinking that if these FMT pills were to improve your ME/CFS symptoms for say 6 months, you might consider taking the FMT pills twice a year.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,845
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Did KDM happen to mention how long the temporary improvements last for? I am thinking that if these FMT pills were to improve your ME/CFS symptoms for say 6 months, you might consider taking the FMT pills twice a year.

I saw this bit of research recently on FMT, http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/291532.php

[The researchers found that the gut bacteria of patients who underwent FMT was normalized shortly after the procedure. They were surprised to find, however, that while the composition of patients' gut bacteria changed following FMT, it remained healthy for up to 21 weeks.]


I see some doing FMT say that they follow up clinical treatment with monthly d.i.y infusions for a while, looking at this research you might only need a maintenance dose about every 5 months or so to retain the benefit.
 

cigana

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
Location
UK
Did KDM happen to mention how long the temporary improvements last for? I am thinking that if these FMT pills were to improve your ME/CFS symptoms for say 6 months, you might consider taking the FMT pills twice a year.
I got the impression it was much shorter than that, though to be honest I didn't ask.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,845
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I got the impression it was much shorter than that, though to be honest I didn't ask.
I read this in another thread, alexa said " i talked about fecal transplants with KDM since my mom ( a doctor) read a lot of interesting research about it, he said that it would help but only for 10 weeks about, then the faulty bacteria would grow back."
forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fecal-transplants-seriously-what-do-we-think.15349/
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,779
I read this in another thread, alexa said " i talked about fecal transplants with KDM since my mom ( a doctor) read a lot of interesting research about it, he said that it would help but only for 10 weeks about, then the faulty bacteria would grow back."
forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fecal-transplants-seriously-what-do-we-think.15349/

I guess if one day these FMT pill drop in price, then people might be able to afford to take them every 3 months say. In fact, if these pills improved you enough so that you could get back to work, you could probably afford to take them every 3 months even at current prices (of $635 a time).



I wonder why KDM's experience with fecal transplant indicates the improvements in ME/CFS only last 10 weeks, whereas the Borody study I cited above found that for ME/CFS patients with comorbid IBS, the fecal transplant benefits lasted indefinitely (sustained for two decades so far).

One difference is that Borody study implanted cultured gut bacteria (Bacteroidetes, Clostridia, and E. coli) into the colon, rather than a fecal microbiota transplant. So that's not quite the same as FMT.

And note that at Borody's own clinic, the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia, he does not appear offer bacteriotherapy or FMT treatment for ME/CFS. According to the website, he treats ulcerative colitis and IBS with FMT, but not ME/CFS. So his study claims to have found an amazing cure for ME/CFS with IBS, but he is not offering this treatment at his clinic.
 
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