Experience with antibiotics

[ljimbo423]

As we have seen from the above information I quoted, which comes from research by Drs Cheney, Peterson and Bell, your medical suggestion about PCR testing looks plain wrong.

I think Robert Naviaux sums it very well here. As a world renown virologist of 30 years and a leading ME/CFS researcher that has worked with ME/CFS patients.

I trust his judgement far more than the doctors or researchers you have quoted. His view is one of the many reasons why I don't trust viral or bacterial titer testing in ME/CFS and why I think PCR and/or other testing is absolutely crucial!

Titer testing in ME/CFS is just not conclusive in my opinion, along with Doctor Naviauxs' and it appears Ron Davis' as well. The testing that Ron Davis did for viruses in ME/CFS, that showed no increase in viruses compared to controls, in the severely ill, was PCR testing.

I'm sure with all the wide range of tests Ron had available and all the incredibly intelligent doctors and researchers he has surrounding him he chose PCR because it's the most reliable, over titer testing.

This is a quote from Naviaux for anyone else that reads this-

Third, latent and reactivated viral and bacterial infections can occur, but in the case of ME/CFS that has lasted for more than 6 months, this may be the exception rather than the rule.

Some doctors and scientists have not done a good job at educating patients and other scientists about the difference between serological evidence of infection in the form of antibodies like IgM and IgG, and physical evidence of viral replication like PCR amplification of viral RNA or DNA, or bacterial DNA.

We have learned in our autism studies with Dr. Judy Van de Water that supertiters of antibodies do not mean new or reactivated viral replication. Supertiters of IgG antibodies mean that the balancing T-cell and NK cell mediated immune activity is decreased. This is a functional kind of immune deficiency that causes an unbalanced increase in antibodies.

What Naviaux is clearly saying is, that high bacterial or viral titers in ME/CFS is NOT conclusive evidence of a bacterial or viral reactivation. What it usually means is the immune system dysfunction in CFS (the balancing T-cell and NK cell mediated immune activity is decreased) and causing the high titers, not a reactivation.

 

[Hip]

Naviaux is not advocating PCR testing for ME/CFS patients in that above quote. Not for any pathogen. He is just pointing out that serological testing (antibody testing) provides indirect evidence of infection (which every doctor knows anyway), whereas PCR testing provides direct evidence.

 

[ljimbo423]

It looks like it depends on which ME/CFS doctors or researchers you ask as to weather they think PCR testing is reliable. Garth Nicolson and Kenny De Meirleir said this in their study on CFS patients-

Using forensic polymerase chain reaction we also examined whether these same CFS patients showed evidence of co-infections with various mycoplasmas, Chlamydia pneumoniae and/or Human Herpes Virus-6 (HHV-6). We found that 7.5% of the patients had C. pneumoniae
and 30.5% had HHV-6 infections.

link

 

[Markus83]

I am going to put all the calculation results online, but I've not quite finished the work.

I'm looking forward to that. I'm also interested in the mathematical pharmacokinetic model you have created, if that's possible.

As I'm pretty sure to have an ongoing chronic Chlamydia pneumoniae infection as cause of my so called CFS, here are my 50 cents on this topic:

First, there is a high discrepancy between study results using PCR technique for Cpn detection. There are studies which found Cpn DNA in nearly every MS patient, others found Cpn DNA in not a single patient. So I think it has an huge impact which test kit is used. My own blood PCR for Cpn in a specialised german university lab came back negative. But I have very high IgG and IgA titer for years. IgA is a hint for an ongoing chronic infection, so I would always test this as well. It seems that I'm making very good health progresses with an anti-chlamydial regime (doxycycline + azithromycine + pulses with rifampin). This does not proof that I have Cpn, but I think it's very likely, as rifampin gives me herxes every time and this antibiotic has a relatively narrow spectrum. I did serologic testing for many different pathogens and only Cpn (and PVB19) where suggestive of a chronic infection. So the bottom line in my case is: IgG and IgA against Cpn very high for many years, blood PCR in specialised university lab negative and good health improvement on the above mentioned antibiotic regime.

 

[ljimbo423]

There are studies which found Cpn DNA in nearly every MS patient, others found Cpn DNA in not a single patient. So I think it has an huge impact which test kit is used.

I agree 100%. The PCR test needs to be of very high quality.

It seems that I'm making very good health progresses with an anti-chlamydial regime (doxycycline + azithromycine + pulses with rifampin). This does not proof that I have Cpn, but I think it's very likely, as rifampin gives me herxes every time and this antibiotic has a relatively narrow spectrum.

I feel very strongly that my CFS started from severe bacterial dysbiosis(confirmed through testing) and leak gut. Have you considered the possibility that you are actually treating dysbiosis and a possible leaky gut?

Whatever it is that's being treated congrats on your improvements and I hope they continue until your 100%!!

 

[nryanh94]

Can you post your blood test results?

The following are my most recent lab results with “abnormal ranges”

 

[Markus83]

The following are my most recent lab results with “abnormal ranges”

C. pneumoniae IgA is negative and IgG only borderline. So I think you don't have a problem with Cpn. For Mycoplasma there should also be IgA measured. EBV EA-IgG is (strong?) positive, which could mean that you have an EBV reactivation. From what I can see from these values, I would go after EBV. Cpn seems not to be an issue.

 

[gbells]

Looking for some opinions on antibiotics, my Dr. believes I have high titers for Pneumoniae and wants to put me on an extended course of AZITHROMYCIN 250 MG daily, and METRONIDAZOLE 250 MG 3 times a week.

I’m a little concerned to try this as I’ve seen people on here State they have had really bad outcomes taking antibiotics.

Opinions?

I would do it. Just repopulate your gut with a good probiotic when therapy ends. The only problem I would think you might notice would be lower energy because of no butyrate production. You could supplement with butyric acid to avoid the energy drop.

 

[Markus83]

Oh, I think I got you wrong. I think your doctor talks about Mykoplasma pneumoniae and not C. pneumoniae? As I already mentioned, I would test IgA against Mp because this is normally the marker of a chronic infection. Isolated IgG can mean chronic infection or past infection, you cannot decide if you have an ongoing infection based on IgG alone in the most cases.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

Even if you are using IgG antibodies as a means of testing, there are further complexities: Dr Chia notes that most ME/CFS patients with active Chlamydia pneumoniae infection will have high IgG antibody levels (but IgM is negative); however some with this infection will have low IgG levels. Thus low IgG level do not necessarily rule out active Chlamydia pneumoniae infection. Ref: here

How about IgA levels for Cpn @Hip? Have you read much about those? I read an article where they mentioned positive IgA is the best indicator of chronic infection even in the absence of IgG/IgM (I may be exaggerating - can't recall exactly!). I had "very high" (yes that was on the pathology result..) levels of IgA in late 2019 when tested for Cpn but it was in the absence of IgG so nothing further was done, apart from a repeat test that came back the same.

I have since had 3 "atypical pneumonia" illnesses treated with doxycycline.. Not sure if all were Cpn or some were Mpn but very interesting.. I am trying to get retested now but doctors think "it's unlikely to be an issue".. Of course.!

 

[Hip]

How about IgA levels for Cpn @Hip? Have you read much about those?

Not really, but Chia's paper briefly mentions IgA.