Evidence the cause of ME/CFS is in the kidneys: my experiments targeting my kidneys with bacterial biofilm-destroying ultrasound

[Hip]

I did some interesting experiments firing ultrasonic sound waves at my kidneys over the last 12 months. As I shall explain, the results I got tend to suggest that there is something amiss in the kidneys in ME/CFS.

As many here know, Dr Igor Markov proposes that ME/CFS is caused by a bacterial dysbiosis in the kidneys which constantly secretes nasty bacterial toxins into the bloodstream.

Dr Markov uses a vaccine protocol to treat this kidney dysbiosis, which he says cures ME/CFS.


I wanted to see if I could kill these bacteria in my kidneys by alternative means, using ultrasonic sound waves at frequencies known to break down bacterial biofilm. I will explain in detail my methodology below, but I want first to detail the results of my ultrasound experiments.

The result of directing ultrasonic sound waves at my kidneys for a few minutes at biofilm-disrupting frequencies was a PEM-like period of greatly increased depression, fatigue and brain fog, which hit me the next day, and lasted for two or three days.

This ultrasonic experiment on my kidneys I conducted a few times, and I got the same result each time: I was hit hard with PEM-like depression, fatigue and brain fog lasting days (and it was quite unpleasant).

Now, I would think that if you applied ultrasound to a healthy person's kidneys for a few minutes, they would not experience any adverse effects like I did. After all, hospitals use ultrasound scans on patients all the time without any such side effects.

So the fact that I experienced these PEM-like adverse effects just from some sound waves on my kidneys suggests that there is something going on in the kidneys of ME/CFS patients.

Thus this experience I had provides some support for Dr Markov's kidney dysbiosis theory of ME/CFS.



Here is the method I used to fire biofilm-destroying sound waves into my kidneys, in case anyone is interested:

While I was researching methods of disrupting bacterial biofilms, I came across a series of studies which demonstrated that ultrasound can break down biofilms.

Here are some papers on the ultrasound destruction of biofilms:

• Ultrasound‐mediated therapies for the treatment of biofilms in chronic wounds: a review of present knowledge
• The pulsed ultrasound strategy effectively decreases the S. aureus population of chronic rhinosinusitis patients
• Sonobactericide: An Emerging Treatment Strategy for Bacterial Infections

I actually have a professional ultrasound therapy device, which operates at 1 MHz and with a power output of up to 2.2 watts/cm2 in continuous mode, and 3.5 watts/cm2 in pulsed mode (see picture below). So I applied this ultrasound device on my kidneys, at 3.5 watts/cm2 and a 1:2 pulse, for about 5 or 10 minutes total treatment time.

My Professional Ultrasound Therapy Machine
(bought from India for just over £100)

​

I noticed the next day after my ultrasound treatment, I felt a little more tired and a bit depressed. But no long-term improvements were observed.



I later read in this article that lower frequency ultrasound (in the kHz rather than MHz range) is more effective for disrupting biofilms.

The article also says that different bacterial species may require different ultrasound frequencies to target the biofilm:

It says 67 kHz was effective for Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas aeruginosa biofilms, but not for Staphylococcus biofilm.

Whereas 28.48 kHz worked for Staphylococcus.

It also says that high power intensities (200 mW/cm2) were more efficacious than low power intensities (2 and 20 mW/cm2) for biofilm disruption.



I wanted to try firing ultrasound into my kidneys at these lower frequencies, but suspect the equipment needed to produce precisely-controlled ultrasound frequencies would expensive and hard to obtain.

So as the next best thing, I decided to make my own near-ultrasound device using a cheap resonance loudspeaker (also called an audio exciter), which you can buy on Amazon for as little as £10.

A resonance loudspeaker is a vibrating unit which you can place on any surface (a table, desk, door, etc), and it turns that surface into a loudspeaker! Resonance loudspeakers are quite impressive for playing music, although the sound quality is not quite HiFi level.

My 20 Watt Resonance Loudspeaker
(about 5 cm in diameter)

Anyway, with my resonance loudspeaker connected to a HiFi amplifier, and using a sine wave generator app on my computer, I drove the resonance loudspeaker at 18 kHz (which is just below the 20 kHz threshold for ultrasound). I was using near full volume on the HiFi amplifier.

I then applied this 18 kHz vibration to my kidneys, 5 minutes per kidney. I calculated the power density would be about 0.1 W/cm2.

The result of this 18 kHz was again increased tiredness and depression the next day. And the day after, I was even more depressed, and more tired and brain fogged (it felt quite unpleasant, and I did not want to repeat any time soon). The third day was also bad; but by the forth day I started recovering.

So this 18 kHz sound wave definitely had a stronger adverse effect on me than the 1 MHz.

Some months later I tried this 18 kHz treatment again, but reducing the exposure time to only 1 minute per kidney. But even though I reduced the time by 5-fold, I still got similar major tiredness and horrible depression over the next few days.



So these strong negative effects from placing ultrasound on my kidneys perhaps suggest that the kidneys are involved in ME/CFS pathophysiology, as Dr Markov believes.

When I applied the same 1 MHz ultrasound on my belly area, I did not get any these adverse effects over the following days. These adverse effects only occurred when I targeted my kidneys.

I have also used my 1 MHz ultrasound therapy device on my stiff neck and shoulder muscles (ultrasound therapy can treat stiff muscles), and had no adverse effects.

So these adverse effects I experienced do suggest something is amiss in the kidneys in ME/CFS patients, like the bacteria dysbiosis that Markov thinks is in the kidneys.



I am not sure how to proceed further with these kidney ultrasound experiments though, as each time I do it, I have to go through a few days of feeling pretty miserable.

It's possible that with repeated application of these biofilm-busting sound waves, the bacterial biofilm in my kidneys would be broken down, thereby clearing the kidney dysbiosis, and potentially curing ME/CFS.

However, at least in my case, these sound waves are causing rather unpleasant depression, brain fog and fatigue, and I don't think I would have the stamina to apply this treatment to myself repeatedly.

 

[sunshine44]

Interesting experiment Hip. My kidneys are completely involved and i often wonder if they just could clear out these viruses and possible fungal or bacterial infections at times, that i would not be in the predicament i am. I keep working on strengthening my kidneys and working to decrease the viral load in them. I feel i was making some progress pre getting COVID in July. Its quite a slow process for me that if i speed up too much, i end up in severe crashes.....and then i begin at all new permanent baselines that are even worse.

 

[sb4]

It is very interesting how you only get the negative effects from ultra sounding he kidneys. The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps you are straining your muscles in a certain way to access your back when scanning the kidneys as opposed to the belly etc but the biofilms idea makes more sense.

Maybe you could work something out with your vaccines and the ultrasound. Like vaccines one day ultrasound the next?

 

[themjay]

Has anyone else got cysts on their kidneys? I had an MRI for lower back pain and large simple cysts were discovered - particularly on my right kidney. I am still awaiting a CT scan. I have all the usual frequent urination etc problems and severe M.E.

 

[Judee]

I do wonder if the ultrasound is breaking up the biofilm without killing the bacteria completely.

Maybe it's making you feel so much worse because all that bacteria is getting released into your system kinda like whacking a wasps' nest with a stick.

 

[bread.]

"Evidence"

 

[godlovesatrier]

I guess it really depends if the kidneys are the issue or not. If it's just another downstream thing then it wouldn't do much. I guess you'd have to do it for a few months to know for sure.

Awesome ingenuity there on the speaker btw.

My worry would be that the kidneys will get reseeded when other biofilms pop elsewhere in the body. Saying that if it did work there's no reason why it wouldn't work a second time too.

 

[Consul]

Do you know any other nearby patients to test this on @Hip ?

 

[BrightCandle]

While bacteria are in their biofilm state they are highly resistant to anti-biotics. However when they are broken up they should be much less resistant to them and without the biofilm they tend to replicate and become vulnerable to antibiotics. Just breaking the biofilm may not be enough and you need to hit them with something antibacterial in nature once they put into a vulnerable state. I think what is likely is killing the bacteria is regardless going to make you feel bad because its going to release a bunch of toxins, to some extent I suspect clearing something like this is going to be brutally unpleasant but needs doing multiple times a day to break up the formations and keep them in a soup of antibacterials to stop them replicating and reforming their biofilm.

Interestingly EGCG is considered an anti biofilm component, which of the Liesk supplements is one of the more effective ones for me.

Some reading on various mechanims know to break down biofilms and how to kill the bacteria (Hip has probably read this but I found it interesting): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5955472/

 

[sunshine44]

I should add that from 2010-2013, i began getting terrible kidney area pain at times, malaise etc if i did too much. I was constantly told my kidneys were fine albeit one stone but that was not cause of issues. I did begin having recurrent chronic uti's at this time too but antibiotics only would briefly help. Once at my sons birthday party i had a busy day and by the end of the party i could hardly stand from kidney pain. I had chills and malaise and was out for weeks. Yet no uti showed up in urine etc. In 2013, they did an exploratory surgery as to why i had so much pain in urethra area despite being negative on uti tests. A urologist and gynecologist did joint procedures. It was found i had a deep bacterial colony that was undetected by all testing. Urologist cauterized it and restructured my urethra. Despite so many things i tried, it eventually came back. It is well known most antivirals cannot tackle EBV due to the DNA situation and i often wonder if whatever virus/bacterial parties are happening in my kidneys have a similar situation with current antivirals and antibiotics.

 

[Hip]

I do wonder if the ultrasound is breaking up the biofilm without killing the bacteria completely.

This is one of my hypotheses. The ultrasound may be destroying the biofilm, but as far as I am aware, it does not harm the bacteria, so the bacteria may just escape from the broken down biofilm, and may become more active once escaped.

Indeed, some studies have shown that when you break down biofilm, the bacteria which are released from that biofilm actually become far more virulent than normal — so virulent in fact that they can cause blood sepsis.

However, I ruled out that hypothesis by conducting the same ultrasound experiment on my kidneys while taking antibiotics (which should deal with any escaped bacteria). In this experiment, I still felt the same PEM-like fatigue, brain fog and depression.



Another hypothesis that might explain what I experienced relates to the idea of a "leaky kidney". In Dr Markov's theory of ME/CFS, bacteria in the kidneys are secreting toxins which get into the bloodstream. Now if they are getting from the kidney into the bloodstream, that may be due to some physical leak in the kidney, which allows the toxins into the blood. I am think of a kidney leak analogous to a leaky gut.

So maybe the ultrasound temporarily makes that kidney leak worse, so that more bacterial toxins enter the blood, causing the PEM-like adverse effects I experienced.

 

[Hip]

While bacteria are in their biofilm state they are highly resistant to anti-biotics. However when they are broken up they should be much less resistant to them and without the biofilm they tend to replicate and become vulnerable to antibiotics.

Just breaking the biofilm may not be enough and you need to hit them with something antibacterial in nature once they put into a vulnerable state.

I think what is likely is killing the bacteria is regardless going to make you feel bad because its going to release a bunch of toxins, to some extent I suspect clearing something like this is going to be brutally unpleasant but needs doing multiple times a day to break up the formations and keep them in a soup of antibacterials to stop them replicating and reforming their biofilm.

Yes, as detailed in the post just above, on one occasion I tried taking antibiotics at the same time as hitting my kidneys with ultrasound, hoping that the antibiotics would mop up any bacteria escaping from the (assumed) broken down biofilm; but unfortunately these antibiotics did not lessen the PEM-like adverse effects I experienced from the ultrasound.



You are probably right that it might take dozens or even hundreds of ultrasound sessions to clear the biofilm from the kidneys (if we assume the ultrasound does have an effect on the biofilm — which we don't know for sure).

But since I have no idea whether this ultrasound approach is actually effective at clearing the biofilm and the dysbiosis, I am not really inclined to put myself through such misery to test out a therapy which may not work.

If this ultrasound kidney therapy had not caused such miserable PEM-like adverse effects, I would have applied it on a daily basis, to see if it would slowly improve my ME/CFS. But the adverse effects have put a stop to that plan.

Possibly in some other ME/CFS patients, the therapy might not cause such bad adverse effects, and such patients might be better candidates to try this therapy.

 

[Hip]

Do you know any other nearby patients to test this on @Hip ?

Unfortunately not. And in any case, I would not like to administer this to another patient, in case there are some dangers involved. It did occur to me that the 18 kHz sub-ultrasonic sound wave I am generating with this resonance loudspeaker might physically damage the kidneys (although the power levels I use are below those employed by ultrasound scan machines).

But anyone who is handy with electrics would be able to build my apparatus. It just requires a £10 resonance loudspeaker connected to the speaker terminals on a HiFi amplifier, and a computer or tablet to generate the sound signal that you pass through the HiFi amplifier.

 

[Garz]

some great deduction of how to pull apart the puzzle of this theory of CFS there Hip

i agree with your conclusion that the location of the biofilm community is the single biggest question needing an answer. or at least the first one to go after.

And great lateral thinking about how to answer that question. well done!

However, I ruled out that hypothesis by conducting the same ultrasound experiment on my kidneys while taking antibiotics (which should deal with any escaped bacteria). In this experiment, I still felt the same PEM-like fatigue, brain fog and depression.

i wanted to pass on some info from my reading around this topic that i think may be relevant to your experiments and conclusions.

the topic of how to deal with the adverse effects of anti-microbial or indeed biofilm disrupting treatments gets quite a lot of coverage in the Lyme disease and associated co-infections world( these are biofilm forming infections also).

the reason being the same as you are experiencing - the reaction to treatment often becomes the limiting factor in successfully treating many of these people - who simply cannot endure the suffering and life disruption of treating the infections due to what is colloquially become known as "herx reactions"

however these is some confounding going on here - as true Herxheimer reactions - named after the doctor who first catalogued it in the antimicrobial treatment of syphilis patients - comes on within hours of antimicrobials and last only a few hours typically - 1 day maximum.

however - people with ME/CFS or indeed lyme disease and co-infections can experience increased symptoms like pain, fatigue, malaise ( very much like PEM) that lasts weeks after stopping antimicrobials - i have experienced this myself for at least 2 weeks.

the common folk law explanation for what is going on here is that bacterial toxins are building up in the patient and making them sick.
However, Some recent research has demonstrated that this not the main cause of long lasting adverse effects -These reactions occur even when the bacteria in question do not posses LPS - and it is instead caused by damaged but still living pathogenic bacteria being enveloped by white blood cells - and then triggering them to release cytokines for quite a long period afterwards, hence the long lasting effects.

This is a good candidate for what's causing the PEM when the biofilm is broken up.
most antibiotics even if taken alongside a biofilm disrupting agents or treatment will not stop this effect - though there are some that theorise that if you were able to take enough of a bactericidal antibiotic to kill all the bacteria outright this would be expected to achieve that effect.
in reality it is rarely possible to get full bactericidal concentrations in all tissues with oral antibiotics, especially as biofilm infections are demonstrated to be many times more resistant to antibiotics, and most commonly used antibiotics are in fact mainly bacteriostatic in action.

we also do not know what phenotype the bacteria broken off or discouraged from the biofilms are in. The work of the famous Bill Costerton on biofilms demonstrated that bacteria in biofilms are not resistant to antibiotics because they are protected by a physical barrier to the drugs as had been thought ( his experiments showed antibiotics penetrated to the core of established biofilm colonies in a matter of seconds - back in the 1970's - so its curious how long that myth has lasted ) - rather they were of a different genetic phenotype - having switched off approx. 90 normal genes expressed in mobile planktonic bacteria - and a switched on roughly the same number of new genes - and it was this difference in metabolism driven by different gene transcription - that caused the biofilm bacteria to be so resistant to common antibiotics - typically they could withstand concentrations 1000x that of their planktonic siblings.

i mention this as, if the broken up biofilm result in lots of smaller colonies or even single bacteria of the biofilm phenotype in the blood stream , they would be expected to remain resistant to common antibiotics - even though they are now mobile.

i have not seen anything in the papers i have read that describes how long bacteria broken off colonies take to revert to planktonic genotypes - and therefore planktonic susceptibilities. in reality it might be a disrupted biofilm colony might give of a mix of biofilm phenotype and planktonic phenotype bacteria - nature is messy that way. most bacterial biofilms are indeed multispecies in nature

 

[Rufous McKinney]

this is intriguing.....

I recall growing up, my mother very often had some glass of urine she was holding onto. checking for some kidney problem.

This was never explained. I now really wonder. My mom definately had IBS type issues....she never ran out of energy. like we do. But you wonder about our genetic tendencies....and where they come from.

 

[Hip]

however these is some confounding going on here - as true Herxheimer reactions - named after the doctor who first catalogued it in the antimicrobial treatment of syphilis patients - comes on within hours of antimicrobials and last only a few hours typically - 1 day maximum.

My guess is that PEM-like adverse effects I experienced from applying ultrasound to my kidneys probably do not come from a Herxheimer effect.

This is because, as you say, the Herxheimer reaction arises via the release of endotoxins from killed bacteria. Since the ultrasound is not actually killing bacteria in the kidneys (as far as we know), but this sound wave might be disrupting biofilm and releasing live bacteria from that broken down biofilm, the adverse effects are not a Herxheimer reaction (since the bacteria are still alive), but might be due to the release of live bacteria, creating a mini infection.

But the fact that the antibiotics I took simultaneously did not mitigate the adverse effects suggest the mini infection theory is not correct.


The other hypothesis is that the ultrasound is temporarily making the kidneys more leaky, so that more bacterial toxins leak out into the bloodstream. In the case of the blood-brain barrier, it is known that ultrasound causes temporary leaks of the BBB. So this seems a plausible idea.

 

[Garz]

Ah, No Hip, that's not the point i was making

any long lasting PEM or "herx like effect" ( read any increase in existing symptoms or new symptoms occurring) when treating biofilm forming infections is not caused by bacterial toxins - as more resent studies show.

but by macrophages or neutrophils engulfing live bacteria - which go on to stimulate the macrophages to release cytokines for some time afterwards - far more and longer than dead bacteria, or bacterial fragments or even bacterial toxins like LPS

my point is that this increase in symptoms that you experienced - that was not mitigated by commitment use of antibiotics and that lasted some days - fits very well with this mechanism of macrophages engulfing live bacteria that were suddenly made available to them after biofilms were disrupted - and would not have been killed by standard antibiotics ( which are mostly bacteriostatic ) and in any case the biofilm phenotype bacteria are not very susceptible to antibiotics - and may very well retain this property for some time after they are mechanically broken away from the main colony.

hence i absolutely think you have provided good new evidence the the location of the problem (in your case and likely others with CFS also ) is the kidney - but not evidence that the PEM that resulted is not caused by a bacteria die off type event.

 

[Hip]

my point is that this increase in symptoms that you experienced - that was not mitigated by commitment use of antibiotics and that lasted some days - fits very well with this mechanism of macrophages engulfing live bacteria that were suddenly made available to them after biofilms were disrupted - and would not have been killed by standard antibiotics ( which are mostly bacteriostatic )

But antibiotics of all types (bacteriostatic or bactericidal) will inhibit bacterial reproduction, and stop any bacteria escaping from a biofilm from developing into a larger infection.

Thus if my PEM-like symptoms were due to bacterial escape from a biofilm, you might expect antibiotics to reduce symptoms. So for me, the fact antibiotics did not reduce symptoms suggests that the symptoms are not no due to escaping bacteria.

So I think my PEM-like symptoms are more likely due to an increased kidney leakiness caused by the ultrasound.

in any case the biofilm phenotype bacteria are not very susceptible to antibiotics - and may very well retain this property for some time after they are mechanically broken away from the main colony.

Bacteria in biofilms are not susceptible to antibiotics for two reasons: firstly the biofilm provides a physical barrier which protect the bacteria in the biofilm; secondly, some bacteria in biofilms become metabolically inactive, in a sort of dormant state which makes then immune to antibiotics.

But we know from this study that bacteria which escape biofilms are very virulent (and so will be metabolically active); they are so virulent in fact that they can actually rapidly multiply and cause a lethal sepsis in the host, if antibiotics are not given at the same time as the biofilm is disrupted.

This increased virulence makes sense, in that if biofilm is broken down, the bacteria lose their protection, and so will have to fight hard to survive.

 

[Garz]

nope - i think what i said stands - most antibiotic do not kill most bacteria outright in the concentrations that are reached in normal use - but slow down their reproduction and damage them making them more susceptible to the immune system - this will apply to those just released from biofilm also. hence the mechanism i describe of cytokine release from phagocytes causing symptoms increase.

its also been demonstrated decades ago that biofilms do not present a physical impermeable barrier to antibiotics ( they do provide a mechanical barrier to the white blood cells of the immune system - that can only chip away at the edges ) but antibiotics pass through biofilm material like a sponge - in fact the biofilm is a sponge as it has to allow some nutrient flow in an out of the colony - as the colony would die without this - -even in their low metabolic state. The low metabolic state is a result of the new phenotype.

researchers who have spent 40 years in this field liken the situation to a multicellular organism with a 2 stage lifecycle - the first stage -the one we are most familiar with - is the planktonic bacteria - are akin to spores or seeds - and the biofilm colony is akin to the mature multicellular organism ( which sporadically sends off these seeds to re-seed new organism elsewhere even if you do not hit it with biofilm disrupters).

this is in stark contrast to most peoples common understanding of what bacterial infections are - where they only consider the planktonic stage - and this is what all current antibiotics have been developed to target - yet the second form is the one that causes all chronic bacterial infections - and these do not respond well to antibiotics.

further - -everyone with chronic Lyme ( another proven biofilm forming infection ) gets flares in symptoms from treating with antibiotics - bacteriostatic or bactericidal - that are typically long lasting - not a short few hrs events - and so are not strict herxhiemer reactions (even though that's still what everyone refers to them as) - but the longer reaction caused by the later discovered mechanism of phagocytes enveloping them and then releasing cytokines.

that group also gets flares in symptoms when they take biofilm disrupters alone - even mild supplements such as bromelain, lumbrokinase, even the sweetener xylitol.

if these people take biofilm disrupters and abx together - they tend to get even stronger flares in symptoms lasting up to a few weeks - i know 1st hand - i am one of them and am in contact with a large number of others who experience the same thing. So there is a good experience base their already - we don't have to guess or theorise what might happen - if you disrupt biofilms and give abx at the same time you can defo expect flares in symptoms. .

I would not be at all surprised if people with CFS also had flares similar to your own if they took a biofilm disrupting agent like bromelain or lumbrokinase or xylitol ( there is some specificity around which agents work best for which biofilm colonies) rather than mechanically break up the biofilm.

honestly i am trying to help- don't want you to go off down a blind alley based on guesswork when there are already plenty of people in other groups outside the CFS bubble with direct experience to the contrary

for what its worth - many with Lyme and many of their specialist doctors are incorporating biofilm disrupting agents into their regimes alongside antibiotics - its a trend that has come to the fore in the last 5-10years.

The general consensus is that most people have to start very low and gradually build up to avoid dramatic flares in symptoms - but by doing so a ramp up to continuous dosing can be achieved over time without excessive flares and abx treatment is then more effective.

it doesn't seem to be a complete silver bullet - more like a useful step in efficacy.
i suspect it would work the same for the kidney biofilm infection that seems to be at the root of CFS - but the more sensitive a person is - eg if they get PEM very easily - the more gradually they would need to ramp up.

 

[duncan]

However, Some recent research has demonstrated that this not the main cause of long lasting adverse effects -These reactions occur even when the bacteria in question do not posses LPS - and it is instead caused by damaged but still living pathogenic bacteria being enveloped by white blood cells - and then triggering them to release cytokines for quite a long period afterwards, hence the long lasting effects.

References, would be greatly appreciated. Is this being inferred from S Benjamin et al? Or do you have another study(ies) in mind? A protracted cytokine storm is a cool theory, but relative to Lyme I was unaware this had been demonstrated. I'd figure the IDSA/CDC would fight the concept tooth and nail.

This is a good candidate for what's causing the PEM when the biofilm is broken up.

No, I fear this cannot account for PEM, That is conflating two discreet phenomenon. Why? Because PEM can happen- and usually does - without any sort of antimicrobial or outside agent,. Simply concentrating can trigger PEM in some. Reading can trigger it.

That isn't to say biofilms aren't at play. Just, it ain't the collapse of a bacterial colony that causes PEM as far as I can see.