@debored13
I think you misunderstood me, and I think you might be a bit misinformed about some facts:
- I believe that there is more than enough anecdotal evidence that kratom is perfectly safe for normal people.
The article you quoted that talks about a bunch of side effects from kratom I don't believe to be very authoritative, considering that it still mentions the hyperpigmentation (in people who took kratom in Thailand) which has been clearly debunked by the fact that nobody of the hundreds of thousands taking kratom in the US and Europe ever got it. There is not much science when it comes to kratom and a lot of it unfortunately is not good science. But we, more than anybody, know how the medical world works. Things get repeated ad nauseam even when they originated from studies where gross mistakes were made.
Now, whether or not it's safe for CFS people that's a complete different story! I would never claim that kratom is 100% safe for CFSers because honestly I don't think anything can be considered 100% safe when it comes to CFS.
- mytraginine is definitely an agonist at delta receptors, but kratom doesn't just contain mytraginine. Kratom contains 17 other known alkaloids (and probably several unknown ones), which include some opioid ANTAGONISTS (especially in the stems and vein). And it contains Rynchophilline which is the same alkaloid in Cat's Claw and it's known to be a NMDA antagonist and calcium channel blocker. There were even some talk somewhere of some alkaloids in kratom having some beta-adrenergic antagonism. So while yes mytraginine is a delta agonist, it's not that simple. There's a lot more going on.
- I'm also not saying that there are no side effects from kratom ever. For example there are definitely some histaminergic effects (itching, etc), I experienced that myself, BUT that requires either the use of an concentrated extract OR taking a massive dose of the plain leaf and somehow manage to not throw up (which is what generally happens when you take too much of the plain leaf). I never heard of anybody getting the itches from a normal dose of plain leaf. When you read about reports of people taking kratom you need to know all the factors, especially how much they take. Of course there are going to be some side effects for people who take 20-30g per day. So, sure, at some high doses kratom might have an anti-androgenic effect, or cause other issues. But that's not the point. Just because people end up at the ER after taking too many caffeine pills or Red Bull doesn't mean that we can conclude that coffee or tea will give you a heart attack.
- the post that you quote about the bodybuilder testing his testosterone tells me you might be a bit misinformed, let me explain why. The guy was taking UEI or Ultra Enhanced Indo. UEI was a product that was around 10 years ago and it was supposedly made by "enhancing" some Indo kratom with a special 250x extract. UEI was always a bit shady because this 250x extract was only made by one person, and it was never known how he made it or what it contained. What is known is that UEI was very strong, it caused tolerance to skyrocket, and it was quite addictive. After taking UEI, people who find that plain leaf kratom would no longer work (which is the same thing that happens after taking a real opiate and then take kratom), and then they had to keep raising their doses of UEI. Lots of people got addicted to UEI and got in trouble. At this point you can tell that UEI was working like a classic opiate and was nothing like kratom. I actually tried UEI once back in the day out of curiosity, and it felt nothing like kratom. Personally, I have a hunch that UEI contained some kind of synthetic opioid agonist.
So, this is to say that if someone says that UEI has an anti-androgenic effect, I totally believe it. It probably will have a bunch of other side effects too, but UEI is NOT kratom.
- last thing, which also in a way responds to a previous post from another person. There are a lot of plants that are perfectly safe in their natural form, but if you isolate one of the active chemicals and use that alone, all bets are off!
Isolating an "active chemical" from a plant presents quite a few problems, first that you end up losing other chemicals that might not be as active, but could provide a synergistic effect or a balancing effect. Additionally, by isolating a chemical, you allow for an intake of that chemical that is several orders of magnitude greater than what could be consumed in the natural form.
I'm not saying that it's always bad to isolate chemicals from plants (would would not have things like penicillin otherwise), but doing that requires starting from scratch in determining the efficacy and safety of the isolate.
Also, in the case of kratom, it's my opinion that concentrating it in extracts or isolating alkaloids like mytraginine is a really terrible idea. Not only because when you do that, there is no way to know if it's still safe (kratom has been used for thousands of years in leaf form, not extracts or isolates), but also because you end up losing what makes kratom great in the first place. Which is to provide a plethora or positive effects, including pain relief, without the risks of harm or addiction like classic opiates. If you isolate the mytraginine, you end up with just another opioid agonist with all the problems that go along with that.
