- Messages
- 491
- Likes
- 3,272
Edward Shorter reviews SO'S book It's All in your Head
- Thread starter Snowdrop
- Start date
Ah, so he was criticising S o' S for saying it's all in our heads when really it's all in our heads and our culture. That's okay, then.
It's in our collective heads. Our cultural head, if you will.
Eh, all of this is kind of infuriating, and at the same time I almost can't work myself up about it. This guy's a self-indulgent armchair theorist who wouldn't know objective science if it pooped on his doorstep. Nor does he care to; if he read any biomedical studies, he'd have to start inventing reasons why they are all wrong on a case-by-case basis. Which sounds like it might be work, y'know? The kind that requires thoughtful analysis. I'm sure he prefers to sit in that armchair some more.
You know what else was purported to be a reaction to "culture"? AIDS.
And you think I'm joking. I mean that people literally thought that AIDS wasn't caused by a virus, but by cultural shame.
Still exists. Still gets published.
So many psychosomatic tracts.
-J
Eh, all of this is kind of infuriating, and at the same time I almost can't work myself up about it. This guy's a self-indulgent armchair theorist who wouldn't know objective science if it pooped on his doorstep. Nor does he care to; if he read any biomedical studies, he'd have to start inventing reasons why they are all wrong on a case-by-case basis. Which sounds like it might be work, y'know? The kind that requires thoughtful analysis. I'm sure he prefers to sit in that armchair some more.
You know what else was purported to be a reaction to "culture"? AIDS.
And you think I'm joking. I mean that people literally thought that AIDS wasn't caused by a virus, but by cultural shame.
Still exists. Still gets published.
So many psychosomatic tracts.
-J
Last edited:
I never get tired of quoting this:
The group-fantasy origins of AIDS.
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1985-14989-001
Could have been written by Shorter.
The group-fantasy origins of AIDS.
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1985-14989-001
Could have been written by Shorter.
"The core sign of AIDS, the reduction of cell-mediated immunity, is one of the typical vegetative signs of depression."
Biomarkers for depression are ridiculous in the first place.
1) We see something we don't understand.
2) We create a criteria to help define patients with this thing.
3) We vote on calling it 'depression'. With a few ammendments to the criteria, it passes. Congrats!
4) We find biomarkers in such patients.
5) These biomarkers are only related to depression as we have defined it, and cannot mean anything but what we have previously decided by committee.
...I think really there's nothing intrinsically wrong with 1-4. Physicians and scientists create categories in order to better understand things, and while this sometimes gets in the way of logical thinking, I understand why we do this as a culture.
At #5 we have a real logical misstep, and I'm not sure that many researchers even realize they have to mind the gap.
Specifically....a reduction in cell-mediated immunity is a sign of a LOT of things. Because it is true of depression as we have chosen to define depression doesn't mean much.
-J
Biomarkers for depression are ridiculous in the first place.
1) We see something we don't understand.
2) We create a criteria to help define patients with this thing.
3) We vote on calling it 'depression'. With a few ammendments to the criteria, it passes. Congrats!
4) We find biomarkers in such patients.
5) These biomarkers are only related to depression as we have defined it, and cannot mean anything but what we have previously decided by committee.
...I think really there's nothing intrinsically wrong with 1-4. Physicians and scientists create categories in order to better understand things, and while this sometimes gets in the way of logical thinking, I understand why we do this as a culture.
At #5 we have a real logical misstep, and I'm not sure that many researchers even realize they have to mind the gap.
Specifically....a reduction in cell-mediated immunity is a sign of a LOT of things. Because it is true of depression as we have chosen to define depression doesn't mean much.
-J
We seem hard-wired for tautology.
We are not only good at defining, we seem driven to define. What is a bachelor? A bachelor is an unmarried man. We have steps one and two down.
Where we begin to stumble is then we introduce how and why. "Why" is particularly vexing. We conflate why and purpose a lot.
We are not only good at defining, we seem driven to define. What is a bachelor? A bachelor is an unmarried man. We have steps one and two down.
Where we begin to stumble is then we introduce how and why. "Why" is particularly vexing. We conflate why and purpose a lot.
Wowwww look what I found! I was seriously not looking for this, more about psychosomatic history, and I stumbled upon an old article about Shorter!
That is the crux of the systemic failure in psychiatry.
In science as a whole! It's a kind of magical thinking where, if two things exist in the same place at the same time they MUST be related.
Because the researchers in question live in a novel where everything mentioned aloud is a plot point. Obv.
-J
Because the researchers in question live in a novel where everything mentioned aloud is a plot point. Obv.
-J
I do think it's a kind of magical thinking. Seriously.
Also, on reading Shorters' article, I can't help but note that the attitude is that patients learn about their illness and how devastating this is to medicine. Something like "patients proudly learn to refute that their illness is psychological."
Infantilizing way of putting it, for that extra helping of scorn.
Also, of the "do you still beat your wife" variety -- if you do the research and are aware of biological symptoms, it's all a defense mechanism and you should accept Shorter's view, even if the research you read directly runs counter to Shorter's view. Ignore what you read and Trust in Shorter. (Though he seems to believe we're all just reading here on patient forums, patting one another on the back, rather than paying any mind to the primary research. Or, like many, he assumes primary research that goes against his belief system is only published in Chronic Whingers Weekly or something. Or that you can use bribes to get in on the IOM report, and a secret cabal of patients has done so. The usual, logical arguments.)
The sad and noble head-shake about what a shame it is that anyone can access information these days, is really something else.
@A.B. -- you never get tired of citing the whole thing about AIDS as psychosomatic? I never get tired of citing the thing about the club hand. Shorter really believes it's 'easy' to generate a fever and swollen lymph nodes with his thoughts?
Has he tried it?
-J
Infantilizing way of putting it, for that extra helping of scorn.
Also, of the "do you still beat your wife" variety -- if you do the research and are aware of biological symptoms, it's all a defense mechanism and you should accept Shorter's view, even if the research you read directly runs counter to Shorter's view. Ignore what you read and Trust in Shorter. (Though he seems to believe we're all just reading here on patient forums, patting one another on the back, rather than paying any mind to the primary research. Or, like many, he assumes primary research that goes against his belief system is only published in Chronic Whingers Weekly or something. Or that you can use bribes to get in on the IOM report, and a secret cabal of patients has done so. The usual, logical arguments.)
The sad and noble head-shake about what a shame it is that anyone can access information these days, is really something else.
@A.B. -- you never get tired of citing the whole thing about AIDS as psychosomatic? I never get tired of citing the thing about the club hand. Shorter really believes it's 'easy' to generate a fever and swollen lymph nodes with his thoughts?
Has he tried it?
-J
I told you I have superpowers.
You need some horn of unicorn, magical candles, a full moon and a few other things I am not at liberty to disclose. Just make sure to never, ever substitute snuffle of Snuffleupagus for horn of unicorn. It can get ugly.
Activating the super power also involves some chanting of the word "s-ohhhmmm-aticize" while visualizing the illness to which you aspire.
I was thinking about confessing my superpower ability to my doctor. Think he'll be pleased that I have finally accepted the truth?
You need some horn of unicorn, magical candles, a full moon and a few other things I am not at liberty to disclose. Just make sure to never, ever substitute snuffle of Snuffleupagus for horn of unicorn. It can get ugly.
Activating the super power also involves some chanting of the word "s-ohhhmmm-aticize" while visualizing the illness to which you aspire.
I was thinking about confessing my superpower ability to my doctor. Think he'll be pleased that I have finally accepted the truth?
Oh, boy. This is an absolute doozy:
I'm going to change my signature to "On a break"
I'm going to change my signature to "On a break"
I ca't believe that this self-proclaimed medical id.., ok "expert" who is not even a doctor has been getting media attention and interviews for 25 years at least.
Is the world leading ME and MUPS authority because.....?
He says so?
If anyone cares to visit his personal Homepage:
http://www.dredwardshorter.com/
Some of the services that he offers:
Litigation and corporate problem-solving? Wonder if the corporate problem is called sick or injured worker?
http://www.psychlaw.com/LibraryFiles/SomatoformSyndromes.html
Disgusting.
Is the world leading ME and MUPS authority because.....?
He says so?
If anyone cares to visit his personal Homepage:
http://www.dredwardshorter.com/
Some of the services that he offers:
Litigation and corporate problem-solving? Wonder if the corporate problem is called sick or injured worker?
http://www.psychlaw.com/LibraryFiles/SomatoformSyndromes.html
Disgusting.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 491
- Likes
- 3,272
here is a simple rule to explain how stupid this man is
- he claims CFS is spread by word of mouth, through social cues that might be subtle , this the impetus for the illness,
yet the friends and families of sufferers who see the illness up front and personal, with blatant exposure do not develop ME/CFS as a general rule, its only those who pick up on subtle messages from social circles
then the illness has to be psychosomatic due to the vagueness of symptoms -
this guy is a complete fool and a dangerous fool at that.
heres something funny - Wessely has said that rates of psychiatric illness eg depression and anxiety tend to be very stable. - funny that, yet idiots like this guy thinks he is witnessing some social mass hysteria on the rise, he even has a book about "why we are all depressed". His only role is to feather his cap.
- he claims CFS is spread by word of mouth, through social cues that might be subtle , this the impetus for the illness,
yet the friends and families of sufferers who see the illness up front and personal, with blatant exposure do not develop ME/CFS as a general rule, its only those who pick up on subtle messages from social circles
then the illness has to be psychosomatic due to the vagueness of symptoms -
this guy is a complete fool and a dangerous fool at that.
heres something funny - Wessely has said that rates of psychiatric illness eg depression and anxiety tend to be very stable. - funny that, yet idiots like this guy thinks he is witnessing some social mass hysteria on the rise, he even has a book about "why we are all depressed". His only role is to feather his cap.
Wasn't that about too many people being diagnosed with depression?
I do remember something from Shorter in the late 90s about the social epidemic of CFS was now coming an end thanks to the rise of psychological explanations/treatments for it. Doesn't seem to have worked out.
I do remember something from Shorter in the late 90s about the social epidemic of CFS was now coming an end thanks to the rise of psychological explanations/treatments for it. Doesn't seem to have worked out.