Dr. Mikovits explains why it just cannot be a contamination

omerbasket

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Dr. Mikovits Responds
by Andrea Whittemore on Monday, December 20, 2010 at 10:38pm
The Lombardi et al. and Lo et al. studies were done using four different methods of detection. They were not simply PCR experiments, as were the studies by McClure et al. and others who have recently reported their difficulties with contamination. Experienced researchers such as Mikovits, Lombardi, Lo and their collaborators understand the limitations of PCR technology, especially the possibility of sample contamination. As a result, we and Lo et al. conducted rigorous studies to prevent and rule out any possibility that the results reported were from contamination. In addition to the use of PCR methodology, the Lombardi team used two other scientific techniques to determine whether, in fact, we had found new retroviruses in human blood samples. We identified a human antibody response to a gamma retroviral infection and we demonstrated that live gamma retrovirus isolated from human blood could infect human cells in culture. These scientific findings cannot be explained by contamination with mouse cells, mouse DNA or XMRV-related virus-contaminated human tumor cells. No mouse cell lines and none of the human cell lines reported today by Hue et al. to contain XMRV were ever cultured in the WPI lab where our PCR experiments were performed. Humans cannot make antibodies to viruses related to murine leukemia viruses unless they have been exposed to virus proteins. Therefore, recent publications regarding PCR contamination do not change the conclusions of the Lombardi et al. and Lo et al. studies that concluded that patients with ME/CFS are infected with human gammaretroviruses. We have never claimed that CFS was caused by XMRV, only that CFS patients possess antibodies to XMRV related proteins and harbor infectious XMRV, which integrates into human chromosomes and thus is a human infection of as yet unknown pathogenic potential "The coauthors stand by the conclusions of Lombardi et al. Nothing that has been published to date refutes our data." Judy A. Mikovits
I think it says it all. Alter said that it is just not logic to talk after all that's been done about contamination. He is right, and I find it sad that these garbage studies get even some people here to think there might have been a contamination. There are so many evidence against it, and especially the immune response.
 
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I wonder if these heartless poor excuses for scientists paid extra to make sure these bogus Retrovirolgy papers came out right before Xmas. Just to try and make us sicker. Well it didn't work. This pretty much shows how they regard us sick and dying people.
 

August59

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This is certainly good to hear. I hope that this, or another similar, response makes it into the WSJ. It is my sincere hopes that some of the pending studies will make into publication with a much more respectable journal than "Retrovirology" very soon. National Lampoon would be a step up from there though. Oops showing my age!
 

LJS

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I wonder if these heartless poor excuses for scientists paid extra to make sure these bogus Retrovirolgy papers came out right before Xmas. Just to try and make us sicker. Well it didn't work. This pretty much shows how they regard us sick and dying people.
Retrovirology = FAIL

one of the worse scientific journals today right next to PLOS
Everyone needs to tone down the crazy talk. No, Retrovirology is not a bad journal for publishing this, the articles today have valid points. We can not go attacking anyone who disagrees with WPI or Alter\Lo or publishes negative findings on XMRV. This is how science works, everything needs to be fully vetted, both sides need to be heard. Of course you will see scientist's egos flaring up on controversial topics, and sometimes one sides story gets more attention then the other that's just how science works. Its not a conspiracy, it's not people being evil, it's just how the system works.

The more CFS patients make character assassinations of people\journals\media outlets who disagree with the XMRV-CFS link the more CFS patients just look like a bunch of nut cases and the deeper the divide between the two sides becomes.
 

Cort

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Everyone needs to tone down the crazy talk. No, Retrovirology is not a bad journal for publishing this, the articles today have valid points. We can not go attacking anyone who disagrees with WPI or Alter\Lo or publishes negative findings on XMRV. This is how science works, everything needs to be fully vetted, both sides need to be heard. Of course you will see scientist's egos flaring up on controversial topics, and sometimes one sides story gets more attention then the other that's just how science works. Its not a conspiracy, it's not people being evil, it's just how the system works.

The more CFS patients make character assassinations of people\journals\media outlets who disagree with the XMRV-CFS link the more CFS patients just look like a bunch of nut cases and the deeper the divide between the two sides becomes.
I agree - this is a genuine scientific mystery. The WPI has posted a nice strong response which puts the ball in the other sides court. I wish we could get a response from them.

I'd really like to get a retrovirologist on board who can give us the pro's and con's of both sides. We have two camps saying the opposite things...I don't think either side is making it up - I think both sides firmly believe they are right. It's too bad we can't have a debate ....Anyone know any retrovirologists who want to talk?
 

Cort

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I think it says it all. Alter said that it is just not logic to talk after all that's been done about contamination. He is right, and I find it sad that these garbage studies get even some people here to think there might have been a contamination. There are so many evidence against it, and especially the immune response.
They may be disappointing studies I don't think these are garbage studies...They are studies published in good journals that have been vetted. Note that the studies warned against contamination but I think it was the figures in the media that actually stated that XMRV was bogus. Those are the people that jumped the gun - not the studies themselves.

The Hue study, for example, required extensive statistical analyses - Hue had no way of knowing how those statistical analyses would turn out (our minds are not that capable!); he popped the numbers into his program and they turned out the way they did. That's not his fault - they could have turned out just as easily supporting the WPI's claim.

Huber found that when she checked her samples for contamination - which every good researcher does - that the samples that tested positive for XMRV were the same samples that tested positive for contamination; that's not her fault! That's simply what that test in that situation showed...It doesn't mean the WPI's samples were contaminated; it was simply are warning that such a thing could happen (and a suggestion that that specific type of test for contamination be used).

The people to get upset with, in my opinion, are those who are going beyond the evidence and saying that XMRV is bogus.....
 

Esther12

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Quick response.

From reading the responses of people like Coffin, who are sceptical of XMRV, it does seem that the UK scientists have really over-sold their results. I am interested in why that is.

I feel like the WPI have been over-selling their results, and this seems motivated by a real passion for CFS patients and desire to help end their suffering. I'm not sure what's motivating the Wellfare lot.
 

omerbasket

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They are studies published in good journals
I think you meant "journal", without the S. Oh, and isn't it odd that this is a journal who have published lots of negative studies about XMRV, and only negative studies about XMRV? The journal that looks exactly like the journal "Virology", that also published only negative studies about XMRV, and is probably connected to "Retrovirology"?
I think it was the figures in the media that actually stated that XMRV was bogus.
It would have been worth far less if they haven't used words that came out of the mouth of some of the "scientists" who wrote these studies. I mean, look at those quotes from the Chicago Tribune and other articles:
"I think this is: end of story," said Tufts professor Brigitte Huber, another author of one of the papers. "It is overwhelming."
And I think that Dr. Huber's carreer is going down after that one.
"Our conclusion is quite simple: XMRV is not the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome," says Professor Greg Towers, a Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow at University College London (UCL). "All our evidence shows that the sequences from the virus genome in cell culture have contaminated human chronic fatigue syndrome and prostate cancer samples.

"It is vital to understand that we are not saying chronic fatigue syndrome does not have a virus cause - we cannot answer that yet - but we know it is not this virus causing it."
Wow, what a great researcher. Is it so easy getting a scienctific degree these days?

Huber found that when she checked her samples for contamination - which every good researcher does - that the samples that tested positive for XMRV were the same samples that tested positive for contamination; that's not her fault! That's simply what that test in that situation showed...It doesn't mean the WPI's samples were contaminated; it was simply are warning that such a thing could happen (and a suggestion that that specific type of test for contamination be used).
As you can see in the quote above, she thinks that it does mean that the WPI's samples were contaminated. Or at least, she says that. With no evidence for that. The fact that she had contminated samples might speak against her reputation, but not against anyone else's.

The people to get upset with, in my opinion, are those who are going beyond the evidence and saying that XMRV is bogus.....
I agree. So let's get upset at "doctors" Huber, Towers, and... The one who tries, not succesfully, to be looked at as an objective scientist... Dr. Racaniello:
"These four papers are probably the beginning of the end of XMRV and CFS"
He's probably not a scientist but a prophet.

Oh, and look who is signed on two of those studies. The one who sees himself as a great genius, but who made everyone think wrongly that xenotropic viruses cannot infect mice.
 

eric_s

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I agree that we should not attack scientists for working and publishing their work. I would not want science or the media to be controlled more than absolutely necessary.

So i don't blame the scientists who have done those studies. But was it ok to go out with that press release immediately after publication http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?9149-Retrovirology-Publishes-Five-Papers-on-XMRV-and-Contamination&p=145042&viewfull=1#post145042? This seems more like pr than science to me. And is, as we see today, in contrast to what other scientists like Coffin, Racaniello, Lipkin say. Also the fact that this was done just before Christmas is very bad. Ok, sometimes you can't control the timing, so it might just be a coincidence but they certainly were aware of what this means to many people who are already in an uncomfortable enough position.

My problem is that i don't understand the reason behind this. I just don't get it. I understand there might be some people who really hope XMRV is not associated with CFS, but they can't be stupid or crazy enough to believe that they can stop the progress of science and keep the truth from being discovered. I can't believe that. Not at this point, with all those people and institutions involved. So it just does not make sense to me. And could those people like Hue and the other scientists involved really be abused for such a purpose? I don't think so. Would they give their careers and reputations to save Wessely and his camp? Why should they? What seems a bit more plausible to me is that those UK researchers who were not able to find XMRV and say it's contamination are anxious to be vindicated and for their image to be restored and thus were very quick to shout "we were right" and wanted to make sure everybody hears them. But i don't know...

Edit: Fixed the link
 

August59

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I agree Eric. There is snake in the wood pile somewhere, but I can't see it. We either find it, it goes away on it's own or we get bit again!
 

Cort

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I think you meant "journal", without the S. Oh, and isn't it odd that this is a journal who have published lots of negative studies about XMRV, and only negative studies about XMRV? The journal that looks exactly like the journal "Virology", that also published only negative studies about XMRV, and is probably connected to "Retrovirology"?

It would have been worth far less if they haven't used words that came out of the mouth of some of the "scientists" who wrote these studies. I mean, look at those quotes from the Chicago Tribune and other articles:

And I think that Dr. Huber's carreer is going down after that one.

Wow, what a great researcher. Is it so easy getting a scienctific degree these days?


As you can see in the quote above, she thinks that it does mean that the WPI's samples were contaminated. Or at least, she says that. With no evidence for that. The fact that she had contminated samples might speak against her reputation, but not against anyone else's.


I agree. So let's get upset at "doctors" Huber, Towers, and... The one who tries, not succesfully, to be looked at as an objective scientist... Dr. Racaniello:

He's probably not a scientist but a prophet.

Oh, and look who is signed on two of those studies. The one who sees himself as a great genius, but who made everyone think wrongly that xenotropic viruses cannot infect mice.
Ok You got me on that one :eek::eek: Some of the researchers did draw conclusions - got it! :D:D

But this with Raccaniello

He's probably not a scientist but a prophet.
He is a scientist, he does run a research lab and he is giving his opinion.......so shoot him! :)
 

free at last

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Everyone needs to tone down the crazy talk. No, Retrovirology is not a bad journal for publishing this, the articles today have valid points. We can not go attacking anyone who disagrees with WPI or Alter\Lo or publishes negative findings on XMRV. This is how science works, everything needs to be fully vetted, both sides need to be heard. Of course you will see scientist's egos flaring up on controversial topics, and sometimes one sides story gets more attention then the other that's just how science works. Its not a conspiracy, it's not people being evil, it's just how the system works.

The more CFS patients make character assassinations of people\journals\media outlets who disagree with the XMRV-CFS link the more CFS patients just look like a bunch of nut cases and the deeper the divide between the two sides becomes.
Its the way in which its done and the timing that really shows how much these people care about us, thats not disputing there right to show there science, thats calling them clever heartless calculated excuses for people.
No not everyone no not all of them, but some of them yes, and sometimes its hard to tell exactly who

The devide as you put it, was one they created long ago, and continue to create even now just before christmas, you can extend your hand to them in understanding and friendship if you choose thats your right, but excuse me if i dont feel like it.

Who cares if they think were nuts anymore, can you really hear yourself, Wake up theyve thought we were nuts long ago, long before we did anything wrong and said anything to defend ourselves. and many continue to think like that, and through clever manipulaition of there so called science and timing. They are still sending out a message to us, that nothing has changed.

But something has changed, prominent scientists of the like of Judy Mikovits and Kenny Mierlier, are now showing how angry they are at this continued manipulation of science and there methods of presenting it, Judy a while back called the situation in the UK abuse, and shes not wrong, if you can not see that, and do not agree that is indeed happening, then sorry your more blind than you think, everytime some one says what your saying im going to say no, thats wrong, enough is enough. i will not, i refuse to pamper to these sad manipulations, to put us all back to where they think we all belong.

I can read between the lines. and they dress it up as just science, pure and innocent, well wessley has been doing that for years, causing untold harm to many many paitents in the uk and even hes influence spreads abroad. These researchers are not all bad i agree with you on that, But the conclusions they make on one of those papers clearly was a bit of a stretch, now we have heard from Judy and the others, it was clearly geard to killing this xmrv DISCOVERY anyway they can, thats not science, sorry its not, its politics based on bias and opinions, mostly negative ones im afraid, I dont like disagreeing with fellow paitents on here, and i respect your veiws, but you must also respect my veiws, and my right to say what i feel from the heart, saying enough of this crazy talk, is like saying please shutup. Well im not saying to you please shut up, im saying to you please open your eyes, your right to have your opinion and no one should ever be able to take that away, but i also have those rights to, and would appreciate just a little understanding as to why i might have them, and more importantly my right to have them. we may make the devide greater i agree with you on that, but its better than pussy footing around and waiting for them to stab us in the back yet again, just when you think that you have bridged that devide. Sorry i think that will always turn out to be wishful thinking on your part, many have tried to bridge this gap for years, and some ( not all ) will only stop when the science of the caring absolutely and 100% proves them wrong, then they will likely go away and retire quitely with bitterness in there hearts. But we shall be where we all ways should have been.ACCEPTED AND CONSIDERED
Peace and merry christmas to all fellow paitients, even if we cant agree on this, your motives on this are sensible. just i feel a liitle misguided. but i guess you will likely feel the same about my words, ask Sophia mirzas mother if she thinks i might be telling the truth. Enough is enough LJS
 

pine108kell

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Everyone needs to tone down the crazy talk. No, Retrovirology is not a bad journal for publishing this, the articles today have valid points. We can not go attacking anyone who disagrees with WPI or Alter\Lo or publishes negative findings on XMRV. This is how science works, everything needs to be fully vetted, both sides need to be heard. Of course you will see scientist's egos flaring up on controversial topics, and sometimes one sides story gets more attention then the other that's just how science works. Its not a conspiracy, it's not people being evil, it's just how the system works.

The more CFS patients make character assassinations of people\journals\media outlets who disagree with the XMRV-CFS link the more CFS patients just look like a bunch of nut cases and the deeper the divide between the two sides becomes.
+1 .........................
 
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Everyone needs to tone down the crazy talk. No, Retrovirology is not a bad journal for publishing this, the articles today have valid points. We can not go attacking anyone who disagrees with WPI or Alter\Lo or publishes negative findings on XMRV. This is how science works, everything needs to be fully vetted, both sides need to be heard. Of course you will see scientist's egos flaring up on controversial topics, and sometimes one sides story gets more attention then the other that's just how science works. Its not a conspiracy, it's not people being evil, it's just how the system works.

The more CFS patients make character assassinations of people\journals\media outlets who disagree with the XMRV-CFS link the more CFS patients just look like a bunch of nut cases and the deeper the divide between the two sides becomes.
Not any of those other institutions even used the same testing methods as WPI. How could that be science? Science is about repeatable results. Not one of these groups has tried to repeat anything WPI did...

Of course they think I'm a nutbag, they have given me a meaningless diagnosis "CFS", and published hundreds of researcher papers making it seem fatigue is related to rape, trama, or some other form psyhcologcial problem that doens't relate to my infections and weak immune system. Look up good old Dr Simon Wessley for starters if you want to see why they think we are nut bags.
 

5150

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This is certainly good to hear. I hope that this, or another similar, response makes it into the WSJ. It is my sincere hopes that some of the pending studies will make into publication with a much more respectable journal than "Retrovirology" very soon. National Lampoon would be a step up from there though. Oops showing my age!

Who is in charge of Media Relations at WPI? Dr Mikovits' reply and this whole nightmare story needs to be put into greater public view, with greater emphasis on the wrong-doing through the years! That job at WPI is extremely important and seems to be currently under-utilized.
 
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We have to fight, in many many ways, protests, sending letters to the FDA,NIH,calling the Univertities that have so far replicated the study, sending letters and calling congress and even the president, there's is a phone number where we can call and leave a message to the president, there is also the white house webpage where you can send messages to the president, if we all do it specially those who are very well spoken and know and believe that XMRV and MLVs are real, somebody will pay attenion eventually, somebody will, send links of everything and anything that regarding the WPI findings and how the CDC has been covering this up for decades, again you can contact many people, and the media as well.

there's millions of people sick with CFS in the world, we need to be more organized and do something about it, they got away with it before not only once but twice, this time they stand no chance, past generations didn't have the internet available back then, but now we can stay informed and maybe coordinate some plan of action.

is just surreal and criminal how the CDC has been treating thousands of Americans treating them like second class citizens and many times labeling them as hysterical people, im am so full with rage right now...millions of lives are at stake because of the actions of the CDC, the blood supply has been contaminated for a long time by now and there's no way around it.
it's so obvious that there is something infectious going around among the American people i have lived in other countries, and never but never i have heard of ME/CFS,Fibro,Autism and even MS, too bad that now i am infected with something too.

In my family nobody has a history of CFS,Fibro,Autism,MS Lupus not even cancers and i have quite a large family and now i have brain demyelination after having a broken condom incident back in May and many other symptoms that resemble HIV, but yet i have tested negative for HIV,HTLV and every other know to man stds out there, to me there is no doubt and will never be any doubt that there is another retrovirus out there and XMRV and MLVs fit exactly the description and the symptoms that i have.. simple as this, to rule out ME/CFS and even MS you have to rule out first many many other conditions including HIV and HTLVs, you don't need to be a scientist to figure these things out, it's obvious that there's something else out there.