Dr. Bieger Study Germany

Deatheye

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Didn't see anything about it but I'm sure I've read about the negative study he has done. But wasn't able to find it. So if it's there maybe merge it?

http://www.cfs-aktuell.de/januar11_11.htm

The contend is german. They talk about the different infections like EBV, HHV6, CMV, ParvoB19, HBV, HCV, Enteroviren, Q-Fieber, Lyme-Borreliose.
NK Celldefects, CD8/Z cell activity, zytocins etc.

What I found interesting is that they state that he is working closly together with judy to search again for XMRV in patients after the first negativ try.
ONe of the problems they see in there negativ study is that they isolated the DNA to soon from the blood after the draw.
Where's the negativ paper and anything more known about theyr upcoming work?
 

omerbasket

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Yes, fingers crossed. Hope they do exactly what Dr. Mikovits advise them to do, and that if it fails again, they would again think if it could be that XMRV/PMRVs were there and they didn't find them. If they would come back with negative results after doing everything exactly as the WPI did and as Lo and Alter did, then that's surely okay. But I hope they won't come back with negative results before doing that.

Good luck for them, and for us!
 

thegodofpleasure

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A -ve replication study would be very bad

If they would come back with negative results after doing everything exactly as the WPI did and as Lo and Alter did, then that's surely okay. But I hope they won't come back with negative results before doing that.
No, I strongly disagree. If they did everything as Dr M advised and still couldn't find the virus, that would be very bad indeed - assuming that their cohort is well defined.
 

eric_s

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No. I've emailed Dr. Bieger about 2 weeks ago, because i would like to see him (i've never seen him so far), but i haven't got a reply yet. I don't think there is any connection between that and the study though.
 

omerbasket

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No, I strongly disagree. If they did everything as Dr M advised and still couldn't find the virus, that would be very bad indeed - assuming that their cohort is well defined.
What I meant is that it's okay for the reseachers if they will publish a negative study, as long as it's a full replication study of the "Science" study + a replication study of the Lo/Alter study. It would not be okay for them if they would publish a negative study which is not a replication study to those two studies.
As to what the results would mean to us - some would probably find it good for them, most would probably find it bad for them - but we are looking for the truth, whatever it would be. We just would very much like not to miss it.
 

eric_s

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thegodofpleasure

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Dr Bieger added at the last minute

Dr. Bieger will present results at this year's Invest in ME conference in May: http://www.investinme.org/IIME Conference 2011/IIME 2011 International ME Conference Agenda.htm

I think it's probably this study. I have no idea about the results, but i hope the organisers do and would not have given him a slot if the results were not in their interest. But this is only speculation, nothing more, so don't please take it as more than that.
Dr. Bieger was a very late addition to the end of the IIME conference line up. He was added less than a month ago and has only a 10 minute slot in which to deliver news on the results from his study.
Rumour has it that despite initially having difficulty detecting XMRV / MuLVrVs, with guidance from Dr. Mikovits he has subsequently been more successful.
 

eric_s

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Thanks. Let's hope that if we spread rumours they will turn out to be correct ;).

For anyone who is interested, i will go to see Dr. Bieger on the 23rd of May. So if anybody has questions he or she would like me to ask him, you can pm me or post them here. Maybe better post them, so i don't get the same question multiple times, but no problem, pm if you like it better.
 

Bob

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Will this study be published, does anyone know? And does someone have a date for when the embargo will be lifted (i've
heard it's when the DVD is completed)?
I guess it's until the research paper is published or until the DVD is released.
There doesn't seem to be much info being published about the conference.
 

eric_s

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Yes... i will probably see Dr. Bieger on the 31st, i had an appointment for the 23rd, but i postponed that, because it was too soon after another trip. Now i'm waiting for him to confirm the 31st, but since it was him who proposed that day, i guess it should work. I will see what he can tell me, but if the study is embargoed, i guess that won't be very much. And they say the Peterson/Levy study will be published soon and most probably negative... So the fight goes on...
 
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Anybody interested in a translation? If there is interest, I will do it today. Well, looks like we have a couple of German speaking members on here anyways ;)
 
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Part 1:
Dr Bieger talked about the question whether CFS could be causes by a viral infection. He distinguishes between post-viral CFS (40%-80% of cases)
and idiopathic CFS (20%-60% of cases). Post-viral CFS presents mainly as an immune-related infectious symptoms such as fatigue, none to low-grade
fever, recurring herpes infections, elevated inflammatory cytokine levels, NK-cell impairment and oxidative stress. Idiopathic CFS mainly presents
as inflammatory and neurological dysfucntion like fatigue, pain (FM), depression, insomnia, cognitive impairment and gut problems.

Possible post-infectious fatigue has been established for EBV, HHV6, CMV, ParvoB19, HBV, HCV, enteroviruses, Q-fever and Lyme disease infections.
Reactivated infections are likely complications of the original illness. This holds true for EBV, HHV6, HHV7, CMV. It is possible that CFS is also
caused by the retrovirus XMRV or HMRV. Usually we find immune dysfnction such as immune activation and deficiency like NK-cell defects or elevated
CD8/T-Cell activity and also various proinflammatory cytokines suggesting an immune activation or infectious disease. Also the genetic markers is
distinct from healthy controls in various ways.

He presented 2 cases where EBV and CMV titers were significantly elevated and to a certain degree the patients would benefit from anti-viral treatment.
Dr Bieger discussed the discovery of XMRV as a potential diagnostic marker for CFS. In collaboration with one of the best retro-virologist he tried
to detect XMRV through nPCR after the study in October 2009 had been published, but did not succed at first. This was possibly caused by isolating
the DNA right after the blood draw which - according to Dr. Mikovits - leads to the inability to detect the virus. For their next attempt they will be
working closely with Dr. Mikovtis (results are estimated to be available around January/February 2011).


The work of Lo/Alter released in August who found XMRV in 86,6% of patients vs 6.8% of healthy controls indicates that this discovery could bring
diagnostics a step forward.

When dealing with diagnosis of CFS and diagnostics we often find reactivated infections. The possible role of the XMRV/HMRV retrovirus is still unclear.
We often find immune dysfunction and we always fins inflammatory processes which manifest in diverging cytokine measurements
(e.g. IL-1, IL-6, TNFa, IL-17,TH1, IL-2, IFNg, IL-12, TGF, IL-10, IL-13,TH2, IL-4, IL-5, IL-8, IFN-g, NF-kB). The patterns of activation of these
cytokines in MCS, CFS anf FM are distinct.

Dr Bieger criticised that despite those measurable differences CFS is still regarded as a predominantly psychological or psychosomatic condition
in Germany and therefore all advancements in research happen in the US and not in Germany. In MCS we also find a strong cytokine activation. Those
form a network and when examining the links between the various cytokines we find a pattern that is clearly distinct form healthy controls and is
associated with infection. Thus what we know so far is that the immune system is activated, there is a dysfunction and there is possibly a chronic
reactivating underlying infection. NF-kappa-b is the most senstitive marker for immune system activation, becasue NF-kappa-b is a central switch in
all cells. Thus we can detect immune system activation even if other markers don' show anything. The following cytokines present the most diverging
values in all multi-system disorders.
 

Enid

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Many thanks mellster for this very interesting post (and encouraging research).