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Do high levels of potassium intake cause high needs of other stuff while on b12?

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Having started Freddd's b12 protocol about 8 weeks ago I've been having spells of sore muscles and intense fatigue. I'm wondering what has caused it and if I've got the wrong levels/balance of potassium, magnesium and calcium.

Yesterday, having lowered my daily dose of potassium a bit, a "test dose" of 500mg made me feel better so today I intended to increase my daily dose, divided across my four daily meals. However, I was already feeling bad by 11am after a morning dose of 300mg (sore legs, exhaustion) so took 500mg with lunch. Within half an hour I felt better. Then, half an hour after that, I felt bad again with sore muscles and exhaustion - I've just been lying down for 90 minutes including a nap which is not normal for me.

I'm taking 360mg Mg transdermally, divided into a morning and evening dose. I'm not taking any supplemental calcium because it seem to cause me to crash within an hour or two on two previous occasions.

Is it likely that I feel better after 500mg potassium because the b12 is causing me to be short on potassium, but that soon after the potassium causes me to need something else which I'm not taking so I feel worse?

I'd be very grateful for advice on this - I'm feeling worse on the protocol rather than better despite a promising start. Exhaustion and sore muscles are indications of both too much and too little of any of Ca, Mg and K and there are too many variables for me to be able to sort this out through any straightforward process of elimination that I can think of.
 

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Having started Freddd's b12 protocol about 8 weeks ago I've been having spells of sore muscles and intense fatigue. I'm wondering what has caused it and if I've got the wrong levels/balance of potassium, magnesium and calcium.

Yesterday, having lowered my daily dose of potassium a bit, a "test dose" of 500mg made me feel better so today I intended to increase my daily dose, divided across my four daily meals. However, I was already feeling bad by 11am after a morning dose of 300mg (sore legs, exhaustion) so took 500mg with lunch. Within half an hour I felt better. Then, half an hour after that, I felt bad again with sore muscles and exhaustion - I've just been lying down for 90 minutes including a nap which is not normal for me.

I'm taking 360mg Mg transdermally, divided into a morning and evening dose. I'm not taking any supplemental calcium because it seem to cause me to crash within an hour or two on two previous occasions.

Is it likely that I feel better after 500mg potassium because the b12 is causing me to be short on potassium, but that soon after the potassium causes me to need something else which I'm not taking so I feel worse?

I'd be very grateful for advice on this - I'm feeling worse on the protocol rather than better despite a promising start. Exhaustion and sore muscles are indications of both too much and too little of any of Ca, Mg and K and there are too many variables for me to be able to sort this out through any straightforward process of elimination that I can think of.

Hi, Sasha.

Other than being able to run periodic blood tests or urine tests, I don't know of a way to figure out whether these electrolyte levels are off normal or not.

If your current situation becomes untenable, you could consider lowering the dosages of B12 and folates, and taking it a little more slowly. The body should then be able to correct any deficiencies from what comes in with a normal diet. I realize that this may be contrary to Freddd's treatment philosophy of "pouring on the coal," but I think the body can cope with methylation treatment better if it is approached more gently. Methylation, glutathione, and the entire sulfur metabolism are so fundamental to the overall metabolism that making large changes in them rapidly affects many body systems and organs at a pretty basic level. All of this has to adjust, and I think that doing it a little more slowly is better. I understand and emphathize with the desire to regain one's health as soon as possible, but I think that a somewhat slower approach may actually resolve things sooner.

Best regards,

Rich
 
Messages
9
Location
Essex, UK
Hi Sasha,

I've been on the same protocol nearly 3 weeks now. I started out with 300mg potassium a day, 525mg calcium (didn't notice when I ordered that Source Naturals "Potassium" has more calcium than potassium in it, hrm) and no extra magnesium. I was quickly getting the stiff neck and tight feeling in my arms and legs, which settled down at about 800mg potassium (and thus 1400mg calcium).

Since adding 300mg Chelated Magnesium last week (the Solgar one, mg glycinate) then I'm getting by with 500mg potassium a day. Of course, who knows whether the demand for these has fluctuated over that time, since I'm so near the beginning.

You don't say how much you're taking of the B12s/folate at the moment?
 

aprilk1869

Senior Member
Messages
294
Location
Scotland, UK
All I can suggest is you start thinking about trace minerals. Many people here have been getting hair tests from directlabs.com. The test will give you an idea of what you're dificient in however it's not all that straight forward to interpet the results.

I plan on ordering one for my Mum as I don't like the idea of adding more and more supplements without some kind of testing.

Some examples of trace minerals: chromium, iron, iodine/kelp, moybdenum, lithium and selenium.

A lot of people with MS, ME etc have undiagnosed hypothyroidism. In the UK a GP will test for TSH and free T4 but these tests aren't nearly enough. Ideally you also want to get free T3, reverse T3 and antithyroid antibodies.

T3 is the more active form of thyroid hormone and it needs to be converted from T4 which not everyone is able to do properly. A number of minerals are needed for the conversion including iron, selenium and chromium.

My mum's T4 came back as 14.7 which is normal however Dr Myhill says she often gives patients with T4 less than 15 thyroid medication.

Methylation helps produce thyroid hormones so perhaps some of these minerals are lacking as co-factors and holding up the progress of healing.

Dr L Wilson finds that kelp by Nature's Way is better than iodine because it contains a number of trace minerals.

If you get your ferritin tested you should aim for between 70 and 90. My mum's came back as 60 wich is a tad low so I'll be buying some iron (avoid the sulphate form as it can cause vit E deficiency.)
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Hi Rich - thanks for the speedy reply - I was feeling a bit glum today at the prospect of having to stop the b12 protocol altogether before I went entirely down the pan so your suggestion about ramping back the b12 is very welcome! I think my current situation really is untenable as I'm very debilitated the whole time with no improvement and there are risks involved in running up serious deficits of electrolytes.

I'm currently taking 6mg ab12, 7.5mg mb12, and 1.6mg folate (as metafolin). Do you have a view on what would be a good lower dose of these things to go for that would still benefit me in the long run but allow my body to correct any resulting deficiencies from my diet?

I'm also taking all the stuff that Freddd recommends as basic vit/supplement support (vits A, B-complex, C, D, E, Omega 3, potassium, Mg, zinc - do you think that these should also be available in the diet? I have difficulty swallowing tablets, plus I'm getting an acid stomach from some of these things so would be happy to jettison what I don't need! I don't know if it's relevant that my diet is considerably less than that of an active person at about 1,300 calories/day so I don't know if that drops me below some threshold of adequate nutrient intake.

I've also been adding in ALA, L-carnitine and SAM-E and was about to add in the next co-factor: presumably I should keep doing so?

Thanks again, Rich, to both you and Freddd for being so generous with your time and help in trying to get us all into better health! I deeply appreciate everything that you do.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Hi Sasha,

I've been on the same protocol nearly 3 weeks now. I started out with 300mg potassium a day, 525mg calcium (didn't notice when I ordered that Source Naturals "Potassium" has more calcium than potassium in it, hrm) and no extra magnesium. I was quickly getting the stiff neck and tight feeling in my arms and legs, which settled down at about 800mg potassium (and thus 1400mg calcium).

Since adding 300mg Chelated Magnesium last week (the Solgar one, mg glycinate) then I'm getting by with 500mg potassium a day. Of course, who knows whether the demand for these has fluctuated over that time, since I'm so near the beginning.

You don't say how much you're taking of the B12s/folate at the moment?

Hi FogLeg - I've been wondering how much of this stuff other people have been taking so I was interested to hear about your experience. I have titrated up to 6mg ab12, 7.5mg mb12, and 1.6mg folate (as metafolin).

Looking back at my diary during the protocol, I see the first note I have about exhaustion was the day after first taking the folate and before I'd started the b12s. 300mg potassium wasn't helping but magnesium did. Introducing ab12 gave me an immediate surge of energy which held up for several days, until I introduced mb12 which gave me faceache (!) and, after some days, I think caused me to need more and more potassium (or something).

I'm glad I kept a diary! So many ups and downs.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
All I can suggest is you start thinking about trace minerals. Many people here have been getting hair tests from directlabs.com. The test will give you an idea of what you're dificient in however it's not all that straight forward to interpet the results.

I plan on ordering one for my Mum as I don't like the idea of adding more and more supplements without some kind of testing.

Some examples of trace minerals: chromium, iron, iodine/kelp, moybdenum, lithium and selenium.

A lot of people with MS, ME etc have undiagnosed hypothyroidism. In the UK a GP will test for TSH and free T4 but these tests aren't nearly enough. Ideally you also want to get free T3, reverse T3 and antithyroid antibodies.

T3 is the more active form of thyroid hormone and it needs to be converted from T4 which not everyone is able to do properly. A number of minerals are needed for the conversion including iron, selenium and chromium.

My mum's T4 came back as 14.7 which is normal however Dr Myhill says she often gives patients with T4 less than 15 thyroid medication.

Methylation helps produce thyroid hormones so perhaps some of these minerals are lacking as co-factors and holding up the progress of healing.

Dr L Wilson finds that kelp by Nature's Way is better than iodine because it contains a number of trace minerals.

If you get your ferritin tested you should aim for between 70 and 90. My mum's came back as 60 wich is a tad low so I'll be buying some iron (avoid the sulphate form as it can cause vit E deficiency.)

Hi april (you are so kind in your replies to me - lots of helpful detail!). I have been wondering about trace minerals - in Dr Myhill's ebook she mentions boron as necessary for absorbing Mg (I think it's in what vets give cows who collapse with Mg deficiency!). I'm already on an iron supplement with regular blood tests for borderline anaemia which has been an issue for several years and I've had the thyroid stuff checked every so often because hypothyroidism runs in my family and so far I have tested normal - I don't think there's any chance of my GP going off the beaten track and supplementing me with a normal test result.

I haven't been taking any mineral supplement while on Freddd's protocol so maybe it's time to start doing that.
 

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Hi Rich - thanks for the speedy reply - I was feeling a bit glum today at the prospect of having to stop the b12 protocol altogether before I went entirely down the pan so your suggestion about ramping back the b12 is very welcome! I think my current situation really is untenable as I'm very debilitated the whole time with no improvement and there are risks involved in running up serious deficits of electrolytes.

I'm currently taking 6mg ab12, 7.5mg mb12, and 1.6mg folate (as metafolin). Do you have a view on what would be a good lower dose of these things to go for that would still benefit me in the long run but allow my body to correct any resulting deficiencies from my diet?

I'm also taking all the stuff that Freddd recommends as basic vit/supplement support (vits A, B-complex, C, D, E, Omega 3, potassium, Mg, zinc - do you think that these should also be available in the diet? I have difficulty swallowing tablets, plus I'm getting an acid stomach from some of these things so would be happy to jettison what I don't need! I don't know if it's relevant that my diet is considerably less than that of an active person at about 1,300 calories/day so I don't know if that drops me below some threshold of adequate nutrient intake.

I've also been adding in ALA, L-carnitine and SAM-E and was about to add in the next co-factor: presumably I should keep doing so?

Thanks again, Rich, to both you and Freddd for being so generous with your time and help in trying to get us all into better health! I deeply appreciate everything that you do.

Hi, Sasha.

As you probably know, my approach is somewhat different from Freddd's. I favor taking things more gradually and giving the body time to adapt to the changes, while Freddd has found in his experience that this approach causes him to lose ground. As I've suggested in the past, I think that Freddd has inherited some genomic variations that cause his body to respond differently from the way most PWMEs do, but as you may know, he does not agree with me on this asssessment. I acknowledge that I still have much to learn about the different responses people have to this type of treatment and the reasons for them, but I will give you my opinions about dosages, since you asked for them.

I don't have much experience with supplementing adenosyl B12 and methyl B12. For hydroxo B12, the protocol I have suggested, based on Dr. Amy Yasko's full treatment program, the dosage is 2 mg per day, sublingually. The total folate dosage, including both methylfolate and folinic acid, also based on the Yasko treatment program, is comparable to the RDA for folates, which is a few hundred micrograms per day. I favor including folinic acid, because for most people it offers advantages. I realize that Freddd recommends against using folinic acid, based on his experience, but as I've posted to him, I suspect that he has a genomic deficiency in the MTHFS enzyme (methenyl tetrahydrofolate synthetase) so that his body is not able to use folinic acid properly, and it builds up and inhibits the SHMT reaction in his case. I think this enyzme deficiency is pretty rare, since I have not found a mention of it in the published literature, but I do think it fits Freddd's experience well.

It's difficult to say without testing which additional nutrients your body might need. If you can tolerate the additional nutrients that Freddd has recommended, it would probably be good "insurance" to take them, unless you are able to test specifically to see what is needed. If it is likely that you have a high body burden of mercury, note that ALA can move mercury around in the body. Andy Cutler recommends taking it frequently (every 3 or 4 hours) in order to keep its level up in the blood so that it does not pick up mercury and then drop it. SAMe is helpful to some PWMEs, but others do not tolerate it well. If there is still a partial block in the methionine synthase enzyme, the added SAMe will contribute to the flow into the transsulfuration pathway, and this can overload the sulfite oxidase reaction, producing symptoms such as headaches or breathing problems. In some cases taking molybdenum can help with this.

As always, I recommend working with a physician while on this type of protocol, since a small number of people have reported experiencing serious adverse effects, even though these protocols consist only of nutritional supplements.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards,

Rich
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Thanks very much indeed, Rich, for another very helpful reply.

I am clearly taking shedloads more b12 than people do on the Yasko protocol (by a factor of about six!). And probably about four or five times as much folate. I will cut right down. I have taken no supplements at all today apart from 2mg ab12 and feel somewhat better, with no muscle soreness.

I am studying biology textbooks at the moment to try to get enough understanding of biology to get a grip of what you and Freddd are talking about but at this point, it's all over my head. I realise, though, that Fredd mentioned (I think) that he has a genetic condition that renders him unable to convert cb12 and hb12 to ab12 and mb12, the latter two of which I had understood were the biologically active forms and both of which are necessary in Freddd's protocol. I see that you are talking about hb12 - is the idea that most of us should be able to convert it to ab12 and mb12 so there's no disadvantage in using it?

I hadn't considered SAM-e as something that might give problems so I will check my diary to see if I got worse since starting it. I don't think I would have any reason to have high mercury levels (I don't have mercury fillings) so I hope I'm OK with ALA.

I don't have access to a physician who would help me with this, unfortunately - I'm on my own (so particularly keen not to run into potassium deficiency!).

Thanks again for your help with this. I'm so impressed that Freddd has used the disaster of his body's specific b12 problems to work out a system that could be of general benefit to others with less florid problems, and that you also have built up your own expertise to be able to help so many of us. If only more physicians did this kind of work!
 

drex13

Senior Member
Messages
186
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Hi, Sasha.

As you probably know, my approach is somewhat different from Freddd's. I favor taking things more gradually and giving the body time to adapt to the changes, while Freddd has found in his experience that this approach causes him to lose ground. As I've suggested in the past, I think that Freddd has inherited some genomic variations that cause his body to respond differently from the way most PWMEs do, but as you may know, he does not agree with me on this asssessment. I acknowledge that I still have much to learn about the different responses people have to this type of treatment and the reasons for them, but I will give you my opinions about dosages, since you asked for them.

I don't have much experience with supplementing adenosyl B12 and methyl B12. For hydroxo B12, the protocol I have suggested, based on Dr. Amy Yasko's full treatment program, the dosage is 2 mg per day, sublingually. The total folate dosage, including both methylfolate and folinic acid, also based on the Yasko treatment program, is comparable to the RDA for folates, which is a few hundred micrograms per day. I favor including folinic acid, because for most people it offers advantages. I realize that Freddd recommends against using folinic acid, based on his experience, but as I've posted to him, I suspect that he has a genomic deficiency in the MTHFS enzyme (methenyl tetrahydrofolate synthetase) so that his body is not able to use folinic acid properly, and it builds up and inhibits the SHMT reaction in his case. I think this enyzme deficiency is pretty rare, since I have not found a mention of it in the published literature, but I do think it fits Freddd's experience well.

It's difficult to say without testing which additional nutrients your body might need. If you can tolerate the additional nutrients that Freddd has recommended, it would probably be good "insurance" to take them, unless you are able to test specifically to see what is needed. If it is likely that you have a high body burden of mercury, note that ALA can move mercury around in the body. Andy Cutler recommends taking it frequently (every 3 or 4 hours) in order to keep its level up in the blood so that it does not pick up mercury and then drop it. SAMe is helpful to some PWMEs, but others do not tolerate it well. If there is still a partial block in the methionine synthase enzyme, the added SAMe will contribute to the flow into the transsulfuration pathway, and this can overload the sulfite oxidase reaction, producing symptoms such as headaches or breathing problems. In some cases taking molybdenum can help with this.

As always, I recommend working with a physician while on this type of protocol, since a small number of people have reported experiencing serious adverse effects, even though these protocols consist only of nutritional supplements.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards,

Rich

Funny, you should bring up possible breathing problems. About 3 weeks into taking the Hb12 and methylmate B , I had an asthma attack. Never had one before and didn't know what it was then, but have continued to have some breathing difficulties since ( I now have an inhaler). I wonder if some molybdenum would help with that ?
 

aprilk1869

Senior Member
Messages
294
Location
Scotland, UK
Here is an interesting article and here is just one little snippet of relevant info:-

Copper tends to lower the potassium level in cells and tissues. Zinc tends to raise the potassium level and helps to retain it in cells and tissues. Copper tends to also raise the calcium level in cells and tissues. As copper lowers the potassium level and raises the calcium level, the calcium/ potassium ratio tends to increase, resulting in a high calcium/potassium ratio. A high calcium/potassium ratio is strongly associated with lower energy due to diminished activity of the thyroid gland. Estrogen has been shown to raise the copper level in cells and tissues. Therefore, estrogen, by means of its effect on copper, will also have the same effects on nutrient mineral status as copper itself.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...18j88w&sig=AHIEtbQbSLeuHWaYNoDFa7IGqCLx7JG64Q