Could and upset liver be a clue to Me/cfs?

Boba

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In my case so many things point to liver problems before coming down with Long Covid. All of my following problems started to 12 months before contracting Covid after a stressful period where I quit smoking. I had elevated bile acids, high cholesterol (I was thin and sporty), reacted to meds and with anxiety, processed alcohol in a very weird way. I remember @mariovitali being a strong supporter of the liver theory. Is this a step in the right direction?
 

wabi-sabi

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Is this a step in the right direction?
I am going to guess no. the things they highlight as problems are decreased urea cycle, decreased kyneurinine pathway and increased taurine metabolism. The urea cycle is one of the main jobs of the liver, so if it isn't getting ATP it will fail at that job. Just like your muscles and brain fail at their jobs when they don't get to make ATP either. It doesn't sound like a case of, "Well my liver was always bad and it just finally gave out and now ME/CFS".

This makes me think that the liver issues are downstream of the ATP issues, so what they've hit on isn't the cause. I don't think ME/CFS is a form of hepatic encephalopathy. But, I could be wrong.

Can anyone remember enough metabolic trap stuff to sort out kynerinine connection?
 

mariovitali

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Original post in 2017

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/machine-learning-assisted-research-on-cfs.51283/

Many of the concepts appearing (nodes) have been confirmed in later research. Bile acids (CYP27A1, CYP7B1), oxysterols, phospholipids metabolism (Choline_deficiency) , liver issues (Hepatotoxicity, NAFLD, Steatohepatitis), Urea cycle (which appears on Dr Morten's last slide), Oxidation (suggests oxidative stress?)

Attached is the "clean" version of the network analysis graph
network-clean.png
 

Consul

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Ups I posted that twitter also but somewhere else.

But is there any clear ways that abilify and benzos can affect the liver positively for patients? Both of these are reported to help in mecfs.

Btw i think the guy that made the network posted by mariovitali is a member on this forum.

edit: clarified
 
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mariovitali

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Ok I‘m confused. Is it coincidence that they work at the same topic and came to identical results? @Themos Kalafatis have you seen the work of @mariovitali ?
Yes, because Themos Kalafatis = mariovitali

I really tried to let everyone know that an AI system was available and that it could help speed research efforts considerably , since 2015 (see attached email). I sent emails to every imaginable ME organisation and many ME researchers. Very few have responded. There is no need to say who has and who hasn't responded. The point here is to have this system help connect the dots starting tomorrow.

Credit has to go however to Professor Modra Murovska who has answered to my email and invited me to the UK to have my hypothesis (AI-assisted) presented to members of the EUROMENE.

The AI framework has identified research targets for Ehlers-Danlos, PANDAS and several critical connections between metabolism with the immune system and more.

I will write to Dr Karl Morten. Let's see if he will respond.

DISCLAIMER : The AI methodology used has been patented (USPTO) in 2018.

https://uspto.report/patent/app/20180322958

Screen Shot 2022-04-23 at 17.12.29.png
 
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Boba

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Yes, because Themos Kalafatis = mariovitali

I really tried to let everyone know that an AI system was available and that it could help speed research efforts considerably , since 2015 (see attached email). I sent emails to every imaginable ME organisation and many ME researchers. Very few have responded. There is no need to say who has and who hasn't responded. The point here is to have this system help connect the dots starting tomorrow.

Credit has to go however to Professor Modra Murovska who has answered to my email and invited me to the UK to have my hypothesis (AI-assisted) presented to members of the EUROMENE.

The AI framework has identified research targets for Ehlers-Danlos, PANDAS and several critical connections between metabolism with the immune system and more.

I will write to Dr Karl Morten. Let's see if he will respond.

DISCLAIMER : The AI methodology used has been patented (USPTO) in 2018.

https://uspto.report/patent/app/20180322958

View attachment 47494
Thanks for what you are doing! I had liver problems before coming down with cfs, I really hope sth will come out of this.

This makes me think that the liver issues are downstream of the ATP issues, so what they've hit on isn't the cause. I don't think ME/CFS is a form of hepatic encephalopathy. But, I could be wrong
Wouldn’t the software point to ATP then?
 

Wishful

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My guess is no as well, and that any liver issues is a downstream result of ME, not a part of ME. I haven't noticed any problems that suggest liver problems, and I also haven't noticed any problems that suggest reduced ATP production in my body (not sure about brain cells).

I'm convinced that the root cause of ME is in the brain, and that's where researchers should be scanning and sampling (kind of difficult to do safely on live brains).
 

mariovitali

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This makes me think that the liver issues are downstream of the ATP issues, so what they've hit on isn't the cause. I don't think ME/CFS is a form of hepatic encephalopathy. But, I could be wrong
Unfortunately we do not know. The system does not find root causes (so it does not perform "root-cause" analysis).

If someone would make me choose, i would go for the mitochondria as a possible source of these issues but that's just my speculation.
 

Boba

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It just makes sense to me in terms of unexplained Symptoms I had before coming down with LC. Darkening skin spots, high cholesterol, reaction to meds and alcohol. Obviously these can be caused by something else in the gut or brain as well. I just hope they will be able to help us soon, because I don’t know how long Incan go on to suffer.
 

Tammy

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I have a book by Anthony William .................all about the Liver and how critically important it is. It's called Liver Rescue. It's a wealth of information and goes into detail about how to take care of the Liver, it's functions, and what symptoms can arise when it is not functioning to its capacity. I HIGHLY recommend it, especially if your are concerned about your liver. If your curious about it.................some libraries carry his books. Our poor livers really take a beating from all sorts of things. ie environmental toxins, viruses, heavy metals, poor diet, etc. etc.
 
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Irat

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The liver is our chemistry with more than 200 functions,if the liver is impaired it becomes for example a source of nitrite oxide and drives inflammation,or when there is too much adrenaline the liver can t keep up with .and adrenaline becomes very toxic ...and so on.the liver also communicates with our brain .so a healthy liver is crucial ,but so is a healthy brain,..

..we can t separate the body from the brain ,all works to together in a feedback loop.....

.but for me the liver is not the root cause,but the brain,and the downstream effect is an up or downregulation in our systems ,(like the endocrine and immunesystem,) which adapts and thisi has become our new homeostasis.
 
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Viala

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The liver is our chemistry with more than 200 functions,if the liver is impaired it becomes for example a source of nitrite oxide and drives inflammation,or when there is too much adrenaline the liver can t keep up with .and adrenaline becomes very toxic ...and so on.the liver also communicates with our brain .so a healthy liver is crucial ,but so is a healthy brain,..

..we can t separate the body from the brain ,all works to together in a feedback loop.....

.but for me the liver is not the root cause,but the brain,and the downstream effect is an up or downregulation in our systems ,(like the endocrine and immunesystem,) which adapts and thisi has become our new homeostasis.
Could it be that the liver which doesn't work well, can create a cascade of reactions that is a bit different for each individual? That's my thinking recently, maybe what we look at, the most obvious causes, are not where it all started, a visible fire but caused by something else? That would explain why investigating the cause of CFS is so elusive.
 

Viala

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I have a book by Anthony William .................all about the Liver and how critically important it is. It's called Liver Rescue. It's a wealth of information and goes into detail about how to take care of the Liver, it's functions, and what symptoms can arise when it is not functioning to its capacity. I HIGHLY recommend it, especially if your are concerned about your liver. If your curious about it.................some libraries carry his books. Our poor livers really take a beating from all sorts of things. ie environmental toxins, viruses, heavy metals, poor diet, etc. etc.
Thank you Tammy for recommending this book, I will look into it. I also think that liver may be the cause, well, along with many others of course. Does the book mention anything about our symptoms? What are the suggested solutions?
 

Irat

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Could it be that the liver which doesn't work well, can create a cascade of reactions that is a bit different for each individual? That's my thinking recently, maybe what we look at, the most obvious causes, are not where it all started, a visible fire but caused by something else? That would explain why investigating the cause of CFS is so elusive.
Hi Viala ..it does causes a cascade of reactions yes,but if the liver would be the root cause for ME I would say many many ppl in our western world have an impaired liver.but of course I don t know,but doubt it....i rather think it's a downstream effect
 
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Viala

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Hi Viala ..it does causes a cascade of reactions yes,but if the liver would be the root cause for ME I would say many many ppl in our western world have an impaired liver.but of course I don t know,but doubt it....i rather think it's a downstream effect
Hi Irat, maybe this is the case, maybe what we consider healthy is not healthy at all? Like for example the fact that a lot of people are creating gallstones or calcifications, which is not a natural process. Why not to investigate it, I think we should investigate everything. It is possible that it is more than one factor that creates CFS. Maybe it is liver not working well along with something else? I think it can be difficult for researchers to find a mixed cause.
 
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