Coronavirus Vaccine(s)

[Gingergrrl]

Our theory that this is a severe immune response that very likely follows after the vaccine has been found. Together with Section for advanced thrombocyte immunology at the University hospital of Northern Norway (UNN) we have now proved specific antibodies against platelets, which can give a picture like this, which we recognize in other sections of medicine, but then with medication as the trigger, explains the chief physician.

What I don't understand is why would the AstraZeneca vaccine cause this reaction but the Pfizer, Moderna and J&J vaccines do not?

I have been studying these vaccines for months (trying to figure out if I can safely get one of them with my history of severe autoimmunity). All the research articles that I find explain why vaccines are extremely immuno-stimulatory and that they can cause severe autoimmune reactions in people with no history of autoimmunity AND they can worsen autoimmunity in people with a pre-existing history like me.

Some people do not know they are pre-disposed to autoimmunity but then a vaccine triggers a severe immune response with auto-antibodies (and in the cases that you are describing, it sounds like the auto-antibodies were against platelets and caused blood clots).

What I don't understand though, is why this would only happen with the AZ vaccine and not with Pfizer and the others? All of these COVID vaccines are extremely immuno-stimulatory. Does the AZ vaccine contain adjuvants? That is the only factor I could think of (adjuvants) that would make it more immuno-stimulatory than the others?

 

[pattismith]

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks...se-of-astrazeneca-side-effects-has-been-found

Our theory that this is a severe immune response that very likely follows after the vaccine has been found. Together with Section for advanced thrombocyte immunology at the University hospital of Northern Norway (UNN) we have now proved specific antibodies against platelets, which can give a picture like this, which we recognize in other sections of medicine, but then with medication as the trigger, explains the chief physician.

I wonder if the non replicating adenovirus vector could induce these auto antibodies?

 

[Gingergrrl]

I wonder if the non replicating adenovirus vector could induce these auto antibodies?

Is the AZ vaccine the only one that has an adenovirus vector? Or does J&J also have this?

 

[pattismith]

Is the AZ vaccine the only one that has an adenovirus vector? Or does J&J also have this?

They have both an adenovirus vector, but @Pyrrhus said the Johnson one is replicating (whereas the Astrazeneca doesn't)

 

[Gingergrrl]

They have both an adenovirus vector, but @Pyrrhus said the Johnson one is replicating (whereas the Astrazeneca doesn't)

What does that mean re: "replicating"? I don't understand

 

[Hufsamor]

why would the AstraZeneca vaccine cause this reaction

It seems they don’t know yet.
But they are trying to figure it out.
The reaction seems to be VERY rear, but we have so few COVID 19 deaths in Denmark and Norway, I suppose that’s why those countries were able to discover the problem?
If Norway continues with this vaccine, and I’m offered one, I guess I will take it - if I can’t choose. (Here you have to take the vaccine you are offered or you get nothing.) The hospitals are now filling up with younger people than last year, after the British COVID hit us. And I have no underlying problems I know of.
But if I can choose, I’ll prefer any of the other ones

 

[Gingergrrl]

The reaction seems to be VERY rear, but we have so few COVID 19 deaths in Denmark and Norway, I suppose that’s why those countries were able to discover the problem?

I definitely believe that the reaction is real and it seems to be an autoimmune reaction that is causing blood clots. I am just trying to understand why the AZ vaccine might cause this vs. pfizer, moderna, etc. Patti said above it might have to do with the adenovirus vector replicating but I don't understand what this means and am hoping someone can explain it.

Edited to Add: Are there no cases of blood clots in patients who have received Pfizer, Moderna? I am not sure of the answer and all of this is very confusing!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Are there no cases of blood clots in patients who have received Pfizer, Moderna? I am not sure of the answer and all of this is very confusing!

Today I learned that my son in law's uncle got the Pfizer vaccine, and developed a very rare adverse reaction, and his body turned on his platelets, and he was in very bad shape, hospitalized, he is now home on oxygen, its still precarious. I don't know anything else about his health issues.

 

[Pyrrhus]

They have both an adenovirus vector, but @Pyrrhus said the Johnson one is replicating (whereas the Astrazeneca doesn't)

My apologies, my information was outdated.

I was wrong: neither the J&J nor the AstraZeneca are capable of replication.

Sorry about that!

 

[Booble]

Today I learned that my son in law's uncle got the Pfizer vaccine, and developed a very rare adverse reaction, and his body turned on his platelets, and he was in very bad shape, hospitalized, he is now home on oxygen, its still precarious. I don't know anything else about his health issues.

Holy smokes! I'm so sorry about your son-in-law's uncle. I think there are probably more of these than we know about, simply from the law of large numbers. With tens of millions of people taking, even if it's a small percentage, it's still a lot of people in terms of individuals. There is definitely something worrisome about the platelet issue. Like that guy in Florida who had his platelet numbers (or maybe it was something else?) go to zero.

When I was sick with virus in December 2019 with a Covid-like virus, but pre-covid based on the timeline, I got a ton of those blood spots on my arms, thighs, torso, legs..well, everywhere. Those are the things were the capillaries break under the skin an then it kind of clots up a little into a little blood ball. It does make me worry about the vaccine. Trying to stay brave when it's my turn.

 

[pattismith]

covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-epar-risk-management-plan_en.pdf (europa.eu)

from this document:

Important potential risk The following topics are classified as important potential risks for AZD1222:

 Nervous system disorders, including immune-mediated neurological conditions  Risk benefit impact: There is a theoretical concern that vaccination could be associated with immune-mediated neurological conditions. Very rare events of demyelinating disorders were reported in the AZD1222 clinical development programme; however, there is no evidence suggesting a causal relationship between AZD1222 and demyelinating disorders. Severe neurological conditions may result in persistent or significant disability or incapacity and require early detection, careful monitoring, and timely medical intervention.

not much info about the clotting risk.

I wonder if the post vaccine auto-immune clotting that happened may be from autoimmune antiphospholipid syndrome?

There is no update on the APS UK site since 28.01

APS Support UK | APS - antiphospholipid syndrome (aps-support.org.uk)

 

[Gingergrrl]

Today I learned that my son in law's uncle got the Pfizer vaccine, and developed a very rare adverse reaction, and his body turned on his platelets, and he was in very bad shape, hospitalized, he is now home on oxygen, its still precarious. I don't know anything else about his health issues.

Wow, that is horrible and I hope that he will make a full recovery. Please keep us posted. I am wondering if he had any pre-existing conditions (specifically any autoimmune disease)?

My apologies, my information was outdated. I was wrong: neither the J&J nor the AstraZeneca are capable of replication. Sorry about that!

No worries @Pyrrhus and I actually did not understand what you meant by "replication" of the adenovirus vector? Is it something that you can explain for non-sciency people like me? The J&J vaccine is an option in the US but I still cannot figure out if it is better or worse (as far as risk level in people with autoimmunity) than Pfizer & Moderna?

There is definitely something worrisome about the platelet issue. Like that guy in Florida who had his platelet numbers (or maybe it was something else?) go to zero.

I agree that there is some issue with the COVID vaccines causing severe adverse events involving platelets. I am not convinced though that this issue is exclusively with the AZ vaccine vs. with Pfizer and others, too.

When I was sick with virus in December 2019 with a Covid-like virus, but pre-covid based on the timeline, I got a ton of those blood spots on my arms, thighs, torso, legs..well, everywhere.

That is interesting, and I have not had COVID, but in 2012 I had a very severe case of Mono from EBV. Toward the end of the acute phase of the Mono, my entire body was covered w/bruises & blood spots like you described. My former PCP was so concerned that she referred me to see a hematologist. I had a lot of blood-work at that time and the doctors felt that the bruises were due to the Mono/EBV, and that there was no larger issue, and that they would go away with time. I have no idea if they are relevant to anything that came later in my case but it is interesting that you also had this.

not much info about the clotting risk. I wonder if the post vaccine auto-immune clotting that happened may be from autoimmune antiphospholipid syndrome?

That is an interesting idea but is it possible for someone to develop antiphospholipid antibodies so quickly from a vaccine? I wonder if those individuals already had the autoantibodies (but they were not active or pathogenic) and it was the vaccine that activated them to attack the platelets?

 

[Hufsamor]

not much info about the clotting risk.

It was a meeting yesterday I believe, where some wanted AstraZeneca to add blood clots to the list of side effects, but the European medication cooperation refused

 

[manasi12]

Today, I saw an interesting video in which a cardiologist was explaining about the thrombotic events associated with Astra - zeneca vaccine. He said that the virus itself induces clotting problems which was observed in many patients. As the vaccine contains CoV-2 virus protein , it mimics the clotting property of covid virus.

 

[manasi12]

I have antiphospholipid antibodies. So, this is an additional risk factor. I have Sjogrens and severe MCAS with chronic urticaria and angioedema.

I had a very severe reaction to tetanus vaccine in childhood. My doctor immediately injected me with pheneramine. Otherwise it was a total disaster. I took tetanus vaccine twice after that, but in hospital under supervision. But I was relatively healthy then.

My doctors aren't sure whether I should take vaccine or not. I'm finding it too risky (we get only Astra - zeneca here). I'm mostly housebound, so wouldn't have bothered about vaccine much. But I need to do my MRI, Echo and important dental work which I could not do last whole year. Without vaccine it all seems too risky.

 

[hapl808]

I don't think any of these vaccines do contain the virus protein, so I'm not sure if that would explain the clotting issues. And if it did, then I would expect to see way more problems (on the order of the illness itself).

I am concerned that reporting on AZ may be more complete, but in the US we just aren't getting complete data on Pfizer and Moderna events. The CDC is supposedly collecting that info, but there's no national health care system, plus many temporally related events are just ruled 'not relevant' by investigators. I wish we had more complete numbers and comparisons with the population at large. For instance, if you take a random 40m people, how many of them are likely to have blood clot issues in two months. Then let's see the comparison with 40m who got the vaccine. Unfortunately, now that trials have basically finished I don't expect to see any of that information. I think the vaccines are all likely safe for healthy people, but there aren't a lot of 'healthy' people here, so we're outliers to begin with.

 

[Booble]

I agree with those who say this is likely a problem with the other vaccines as well and not limited to AZ.
I also agree that we are not hearing about all the adverse cases because they start off as "under investigation."

Clearly in the US all spokespeople have been trained to say, "X# of people die every day so there is no way we can attribute it to the vaccine." That's the case even when a perfectly healthy 60 year old gets the vaccine and then 20 minutes or 24 hours later dies of an unusual condition.

We're really stuck between a rock and a hard place because as a society we absolutely MUST vaccinate as many people as possible as a public health measure, despite that some people are going to be killed and/or become impaired from the vaccine.

 

[Booble]

The neurological condition they are describing sound like Multiple Sclerosis (immune mediated demyelinating neurological). I wonder if they have found that the vaccine worsened the condition of those with MS and/or produced MS in those that were on the cusp of getting it.

 

[Booble]

I had a very severe reaction to tetanus vaccine in childhood. My father who is a physician immediately injected me with pheneramine. Otherwise it was a total disaster. I took tetanus vaccine twice after that, but in hospital under supervision. But I was relatively healthy then.

Yikes!

 

[hapl808]

I agree with those who say this is likely a problem with the other vaccines as well and not limited to AZ.
I also agree that we are not hearing about all the adverse cases because they start off as "under investigation."

Clearly in the US all spokespeople have been trained to say, "X# of people die every day so there is no way we can attribute it to the vaccine." That's the case even when a perfectly healthy 60 year old gets the vaccine and then 20 minutes or 24 hours later dies of an unusual condition.

We're really stuck between a rock and a hard place because as a society we absolutely MUST vaccinate as many people as possible as a public health measure, despite that some people are going to be killed and/or become impaired from the vaccine.

Yes, exactly so. I do think we should vaccinate as many people as possible, but I'd rather have more complete information. Many of us try antihistamines to help with mast cell issues even though we know adverse reactions are not uncommon. If someone told me no one ever had a bad reaction to an antihistamine, I'd know they were lying. That's how I feel about vaccines. The chance of a very serious adverse reaction seems lower than many normal medications and far far lower than catching Covid, but it would be surprising if something that activated the whole immune system didn't occasionally cause serious issues (especially with how little we know about MS, autoimmune disorders, etc).