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Complete Symptom Relief and CFS Remission Since Starting Nitric Oxide Supplement

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
I am intrigued; I just ordered some.

Dr Hornig had reported that their cohort was significantly low in ADMA assymetric dimethylarginine. I do wonder about the significance of this. It may have been in their CFI funded study nothing published on this though.

Do you know what the arginine levels were? As I understand it, the issue is not so much the level of ADMA as the ratio of ADMA-to-arginine. For instance, a 2010 review of ADMA noted that

ADMA levels were inversely correlated to the endothelial-dependent vasodilatation. Furthermore, intravenous infusion of L-arginine normalised not just the L-arginine/ADMA ratio but also normalised the endothelial function.
So although they are suggesting that ADMA is a good test for heart health, they are also saying that actually your ADMA level doesn't matter in and of itself--it only matters in relation to how much arginine is floating around.

A Bit of a Tangent Into Arginine and ADMA:


The link between arginine and "normalized endothelial function" might sound like a great reason to take a bunch of L-Arginine--and indeed, a lot of experts thought so at first. Unfortunately, the benefits didn't materialize as imagined: See this page from UC Berkley where they say that "a study at Johns Hopkins Hospital in 2006 found that arginine supplements given to heart attack patients dramatically increased deaths. The study had to be halted."

Why did L-arginine appear to increase deaths in heart attack patients? One possibility is that arginine is only dangerous for people with too much PRMT, which as people have said, is what converts arginine to ADMA using two SAMe. Since ADMA levels correlate well with risk of a heart attack we might expect people having heart attacks to have high PRMT levels or activity. (If this has been studied I haven't seen it...but I haven't looked a lot.) This might explain why giving L-arginine to people who just had heart attacks is a bad idea.

Unfortunately, there is a second possibility--one I have not yet taken the time to rule out by actually reading the positive studies. Essentially, it could be that the early studies only found benefit because they infused arginine and tested NO in somewhat quick succession. Perhaps if they had waited longer before testing the arginine would have had more time to become ADMA, in which case L-arginine supplements taken at physiologically relevant doses (that is to say, enough to feel something) might be dangerous to everyone. I am far from sure about this, but it seemed like I should mention it.

In any case I'm glad you found something that works so well for you @gregh286 , and I'll report back when I try some.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,866
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Nitrates yea i tried imdur.....they are too powerful and.short acting. We need something that operates 24 hours a day.
Nicorandil is one of few (prescription) nitrates that has a 24 hour action without developing tolerance to it, it's a combination of nitrate and nicotinamide. I use it as a peripheral artery vasodilator because of intestinal ischemia causing gastroparesis.

I couldn't tolerate either arginine or citrulline supplements but nicorandil was not a problem.
 

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
@aaron_c
In answer to your question, no that's all the info I think, it was stated in a conference talk if I remember correctly. I've done a little bit of research as in what is on wiki and some papers in some illnesses but that's about it. I did find something on low levels of it but can't find that now.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
I thought that NO2 was a bad thing for ME/CFS based on the work by Martin Pall.
Not everyone agrees with Pall's theories...
An Engineering Perspective on CFS – by Dave Whitlock

Martin Pall has presented a hypothesis that CFS results from peroxynitrite damage to mitochondria and other components of cells, and that this peroxynitrite damage is due to too much NO. This is incorrect. Peroxynitrite is a normal and absolutely necessary signaling molecule. Peroxynitrite only occurs in vitro when near equimolar fluxes of superoxide and NO are produced. When there is an excess of either NO or superoxide then peroxynitrite and damage due to peroxynitrite is not observed. In CFS it is observed that there is an increased accumulation of peroxynitrite damaged proteins. At steady state, production minus repair equal accumulation. The accumulation of damaged proteins can occur either from an increased rate of production (at constant repair) (Pall’s hypothesis) or from reduced repair (at constant or even reduced production rate) (my hypothesis).
 
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JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Product made from whey peptide -- they say it contains no milk, but ppl sensitive to milk proteins may want to be cautious.

Additionally, "Use of this product us not recommended in individuals allergic to corn products, gluten, or citrus fruit."

Us not recommended. They could've used an editor. ;)

-J

[Additionally, do you really take 8 pills of this a day as suggested for men?]
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
978
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Product made from whey peptide -- they say it contains no milk, but ppl sensitive to milk proteins may want to be cautious.

Additionally, "Use of this product us not recommended in individuals allergic to corn products, gluten, or citrus fruit."

Us not recommended. They could've used an editor. ;)

-J

[Additionally, do you really take 8 pills of this a day as suggested for men?]

I take 10.
Im around 200lbs so its the recommended dose.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
I'm a very cautious person and in 2 years haven't tried any supplements, but I'm struggling to find a downside to trying this out. I checked all amazon reviews, no-one reports any side effects or unpleasantness, only one guy had a headache on the first day, which disappeared. Most one-star reviews just say it didn't work. So it looks like the worst that can happen is that I waste my money and it doesn't work. On the plus side on the off-chance that it helps me I could have all or part of my life back for around 100 GBP a month.

I've just had to finally accept that playing music is a thing of the past for me, plus the usual deal that if I stay within my narrow limits I can be fairly symptom free isn't really working any more, so I'm ready to take a punt and have just ordered 180 tablets. I haven't decided to take them yet, and will keep reading this thread and think carefully about whether to give it a try or not. I just wanted to secure my supply in case they sell out due to hoards of ME patients buying up all the stocks.
 

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
Is there a chance this supplement was having a synergistic affect with the others you were taking @gregh286 I hope it is also OK to ask if you had OI/POTS symptoms as part of your symptoms cluster?
Sorry I forget half the terminologies sometimes.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
978
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
I'm a very cautious person and in 2 years haven't tried any supplements, but I'm struggling to find a downside to trying this out. I checked all amazon reviews, no-one reports any side effects or unpleasantness, only one guy had a headache on the first day, which disappeared. Most one-star reviews just say it didn't work. So it looks like the worst that can happen is that I waste my money and it doesn't work. On the plus side on the off-chance that it helps me I could have all or part of my life back for around 100 GBP a month.

I've just had to finally accept that playing music is a thing of the past for me, plus the usual deal that if I stay within my narrow limits I can be fairly symptom free isn't really working any more, so I'm ready to take a punt and have just ordered 180 tablets. I haven't decided to take them yet, and will keep reading this thread and think carefully about whether to give it a try or not. I just wanted to secure my supply in case they sell out due to hoards of ME patients buying up all the stocks.
And i thought golf was a thing of the past for me. Never lose hope.
 

Battery Muncher

Senior Member
Messages
620
I'm a very cautious person and in 2 years haven't tried any supplements, but I'm struggling to find a downside to trying this out. I checked all amazon reviews, no-one reports any side effects or unpleasantness, only one guy had a headache on the first day, which disappeared. Most one-star reviews just say it didn't work. So it looks like the worst that can happen is that I waste my money and it doesn't work. On the plus side on the off-chance that it helps me I could have all or part of my life back for around 100 GBP a month.

I've just had to finally accept that playing music is a thing of the past for me, plus the usual deal that if I stay within my narrow limits I can be fairly symptom free isn't really working any more, so I'm ready to take a punt and have just ordered 180 tablets. I haven't decided to take them yet, and will keep reading this thread and think carefully about whether to give it a try or not. I just wanted to secure my supply in case they sell out due to hoards of ME patients buying up all the stocks.

Yes, as far as I can make out the main drawbacks mentioned are:

1) The pills are pretty big, so might need a pill cutter

2) takes about one month to work (although these are bodybuilders, so I think they are looking for different effects than us)

3) bloody expensive

Unfortunately, I've fallen behind on some bills and am currently in overdraft (due to Christmas, Birthdays etc), so I can't try it yet.

Having said that, I'm expecting my money situation to improve over the next few months, so I'll keep watching this thread and hopefully try it in the summer.
 

gregh286

Senior Member
Messages
978
Location
Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Is there a chance this supplement was having a synergistic affect with the others you were taking @gregh286 I hope it is also OK to ask if you had OI/POTS symptoms as part of your symptoms cluster?
Sorry I forget half the terminologies sometimes.

That is highly possible. I was taking fredds methlylation proto at same time. I never had POTS or OI. My blood pressure always erred.on high side 140/80 at rest. 155/90 standing. 250/100 on a vo2 max test.