CIC's (circulating immune complexes): creation and pancreatic enzymes

ebethc

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I've tried many, many things for pain (rx and otc) and either it doesn't work or has side effects that are deal breakers (rebound pain for anything that's remotely helpful).. The only thing that works well and for sure better than anything else w no deleterious side effects is proteolytic enzymes from the pancreas - Wobenzym and Vascuzyme. (Bromelain is helpful to some extent, and other proteolytic enzymes did nothing.) The huge downside is expense.. I have to take a high dose, so I really can't afford either wobie or vascuzyme, even though it's a "priority supplement"

I'm trying to understand how it helps me, so that maybe I can address that pathway in some other (cheaper!) way. The literature says that wobie breaks down "immune complexes" which seems pretty non specific, and does not explain how pancreatic enzymes get involved..
  1. How are CIC's created? What's the pathway?
  2. What role does the pancreas play in breaking them down? e.g., where in the pathway do the pancreatic enzymes come into play?
  3. Is there a way to test for levels of CIC's? what's the test called?
It MIGHT have something to do w the complement system - which I don't know too much about.. Also, I had extensive allergy testing (blood and scratch, I believe it was all IgE testing).. that turned up nothing, so that's not it OR my immune system is too lame to make the markers for allergies..

I believe that CICs are present in healthy people, so the problems may arise when there are too many of them..I found this, which is interesting... Reactions to foods (specifically gliadin) can cause CIC's

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18819035
 

ebethc

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I've been taking pancreatin for 2 years. It helped most of my digestion problems. I thought I had lactose intolerance, but I don't since I've taken this.
so, do you take it w meals? I take it between meals for pain... does it help your pain at all?

which brand do you use?
 

halcyon

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I don’t believe the pancreas has anything to do with creation or destruction of CICs.

They are formed in the blood when antibodies bind to an antigen, forming a complex. Compliment may also bind to the complex, I don’t recall exactly. The problems occur when these complexes circulate through the body and then lodge in tissues, like blood vessels or the kidneys. This then attracts an inflammatory immune response to the area and causes collateral damage in the tissue.

CICs are found in ME patients. At least one study determined the antigen in the CIC isolated was enterovirus antigen.

I’m not sure how widely available testing is for these. It looks like Mayo labs offers a test.
 

ebethc

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I don’t believe the pancreas has anything to do with creation or destruction of CICs.

They are formed in the blood when antibodies bind to an antigen, forming a complex. Compliment may also bind to the complex, I don’t recall exactly. The problems occur when these complexes circulate through the body and then lodge in tissues, like blood vessels or the kidneys. This then attracts an inflammatory immune response to the area and causes collateral damage in the tissue.

CICs are found in ME patients. At least one study determined the antigen in the CIC isolated was enterovirus antigen.

I’m not sure how widely available testing is for these. It looks like Mayo labs offers a test.
thanks for the explanation!

how are they eliminated / broken down in healthy people?

If excessive antibodies are involved, wouldn't bloodwork (cbc, etc) show abnormalities? from what i understand, CICs are common; it's just when they are excessive that problems are caused.

I also read something online that blamed leaky gut... do you know anything about that? leaky gut is blamed for everything, and although I believe it's responsible for a LOT, I need to see some evidence.
 

halcyon

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how are they eliminated / broken down in healthy people?
Looks like through protease degradation and phagocytosis by immune cells and processing through liver and spleen.

I’m not sure what other blood work might be abnormal along with increased CICs.

I imagine the belief with leaky gut would be that this would let through large undigested proteins which would be recognized by the immune system as foreign antigens. Whether or not this actually happens I don’t know.
 

ebethc

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Looks like through protease degradation and phagocytosis by immune cells and processing through liver and spleen.
sorry, I don't understand this sentence... "What" happens as a result of protease degradation and phagocytosis? CIC breakdown?

what role do liver/spleen play in protease degradation and phagocytosis, or is that a separate process?

I went vegan for awhile and my digestion was good, but I didn't feel good otherwise (weak, and even more spacey than usual)... I stuck it out for awhile, then broke down and had an organic chicken breast and felt WAY better... Since then I discovered betaine hcl w pepsin, and that has been a big help... So, if proteases are related to protein, that might just be a puzzle piece.. I do feel like my body wants protein but has a hard time processing it..

I imagine the belief with leaky gut would be that this would let through large undigested proteins which would be recognized by the immune system as foreign antigens. Whether or not this actually happens I don’t know.
yes, the article theorized that particles that slip through the junctures in the intestinal wall stimulate the response, leading to more CIC's than the body can breakdown...