Choose the order: Oximatrine, Olmesartan, Famciclovir, Inosine Pranobex and Cycloferon.

nsdn

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Hi.

In a short time I will have all these things at home:
Oximatrine, Olmesartan, Famciclovir, Inosine Pranobex and Cycloferon.

I have the idea of trying with all of them but I do not know in what order. Can you help me? I understand that Famciclovir would be the last one since it is a long treatment.

How do you think I should do?

Greetings and many thanks.
 

Hip

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It depends on which viral active infections you have: oxymatrine I believe is mainly used for coxsackievirus B and echovirus infection in ME/CFS (though I am not entirely sure); famciclovir is only used for EBV infection (as does not have much effect against other herpesviruses such as HHV-6 or cytomegalovirus, and no effect for coxsackievirus B and echovirus).

In terms of timescale, oxymatrine takes a couple of months to work; inosine may take a little longer; famciclovir takes around 2 years to work; and olmesartan takes up to 4 years to work (as part of the Marshall Protocol).

So I would start with the fastest acting treatment, namely oxymatrine. You can take oxymatrine and inosine at the same time I think.
 

nsdn

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Thank you @Hip

I have all those viruses high except HHV-6 but I can't buy Valcyte.

I know of some case of worsening with Olmesartan (a week) and then improvement (after 2 weeks), is this very anecdotal? I did not think to take it more than 2 months without improvements.

The same with Oximatrine. I did not think to go beyond 2 months without improvements.

Famciclovir I think I should be at least 4 months to know if I start to improve.
 

Hip

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The timescales I gave are the times for the full benefits of the treatment to appear. Yes, the first benefits of famciclovir will appear after around 4 months, but the full benefits take around 2 years.

I only know one person on this forum who tried and benefitted from olmesartan (Benicar), and if I remember correctly, he said it took 4 years. There are also some Marshall Protocol recovery reports on the Inflammation Therapy website.
 

junkcrap50

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@Hip, what do you think of the Marshall Protocol? I'm pretty open minded, but I just can't seem to fully buy the Marshall Protocol. The science seems plausible. However, the fact that if your inflammation and health worsens and they say "that just means it's working;" and, if you're been on it for 3-4 years and made no progress, they say "you just haven't been on it long enough," just makes me uneasy.
 

Hip

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@Hip, what do you think of the Marshall Protocol? I'm pretty open minded, but I just can't seem to fully buy the Marshall Protocol.
To me the Marshall Protocol (MP) makes some sense in terms of the chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus theory of ME/CFS: this non-cytolytic form of enterovirus, which numerous studies have found in the muscle, stomach and brain tissues of ME/CFS patients, actually lives within human cells as an intracellular infection.

So if you want to fight this non-cytolytic enterovirus, you have to ramp up the intracellular immune response. Well this is what the Marshall Protocol does. I posted some info about how the MP works here and here.

So it seems feasible that the MP might help, but it's quite a long term commitment, because unfortunately the reported benefits are slow, like you need around four years. I always say to myself every year: I wish I'd started the MP four years ago!


@Art Vandelay is the forum member who benefitted from the Marshall Protocol.
 

nsdn

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Hi.

In my profane understand antibiotics in very short cycles create resistance, so I have not thought about the MP and have only thought about the main drug.

Best regards.
 
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I was given in this order and why
Equillibrant = tried to controlled naturally the high viral load. About one year increasing slowly and blood test every 6 months.
Antiviral + inmune modulator = naturally was not successful so added antiviral to lower very high tigers of hh6v.

I started antiviral low dose first. 3 weeks in added very low Imunovir ( stronger than inosine) very very low dose and up every two weeks. Then LDN for pain.
 

Art Vandelay

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In a short time I will have all these things at home:
Oximatrine, Olmesartan, Famciclovir, Inosine Pranobex and Cycloferon.
Do you mind me asking where you have obtained the Olmesartan? I'm always investigating back-up sources of supply in case I am no longer able to get it in Australia.

I know of some case of worsening with Olmesartan (a week) and then improvement (after 2 weeks), is this very anecdotal?
Eveyone's experience with Olmesartan is different. Some do not worsen at all, however, most do. I was worse for a few years before I started to improve very slowly.

To me the Marshall Protocol (MP) makes some sense in terms of the chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus theory of ME/CFS: this non-cytolytic form of enterovirus, which numerous studies have found in the muscle, stomach and brain tissues of ME/CFS patients, actually lives within human cells as an intracellular infection.
That's interesting, Hip. I've never heard of anyone using the MP for treating enteroviruses. Anecdotally, my immune response to viruses (eg, on the few occasions when I've caught a cold) is much stronger now that I'm on the MP, whereas prior to the MP it was weak and the colds would linger for ages.

In my profane understand antibiotics in very short cycles create resistance, so I have not thought about the MP and have only thought about the main drug.
Antibiotics really aren't used by many on the MP any more. The emphasis is to get the right dose of Olmesartan which will give rise to a bearable Herxheimer reaction.

I decided to try the MP after I found that doses of antibiotics given for short term infections unrelated to my CFS would provoke a strong Herxheimer reaction. (It took me years to figure out why I got this weird consistent and very specific pattern of symptoms every time I was on antibiotics.) It was this that made me decide that chronic bacterial infection was at least partially responsible for my ME/CFS.

Olmesartan is a positive in that it reduces my inflammation, brain fog, pain and fatigue, however it does have some negative effects (especially the Herxing) which can be just as debilitating.

However I do know of a severe ME patient who is on an extremely low dose (only 20mg per day) who has benefited within a few months with no costs so far.

It may take a month or so for you to notice if the Olmesartan is going to be helpful for you or it may be obvious much more quickly. My experience was I got huge Herxing and extreme sensitivity to light after about only 2 weeks.

If you're after instant feedback as to whether a particular treatment will be effective for you, I'd probably try some of the other medications you've mentioned first.
 
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junkcrap50

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Thanks @Hip for the links to your two comments. It seems our opinions on the Marshall Protocol seem to line up very closely. Very plausible that olmesartan frees up VDR, which stimulates immune fighting. That I believe and why I haven't discounted the theory in total. But the other stuff just doesn't make sense to me.

I also don't understand why if olmesartan (Benicare) causes such extreme immunopathy from the release of microbes being displaced from VDR receptor sites, then why does taking more olmesartan recommended to make the herx symptoms go away? Shouldn't it just cause more release of microbes and more herx. Maybe there's new thinking among the MP community now.

Do you mind me asking where you have obtained the Olmesartan? I'm always investigating back-up sources of supply in case I am no longer able to get it in Australia.
....
Antibiotics really aren't used by many on the MP any more. The emphasis is to get the right dose of Olmesartan which will give rise to a bearable Herxheimer reaction.
How long have you been on the MP? And how much longer do you see yourself needing to be on it? What's the benefit from the MP been for you? What's your current health status?

Antibiotics not being used much anymore seems like a loss in a core part of their theory. I'd be interested to see how else the MP has evolved.
 

Hip

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I also don't understand why if olmesartan (Benicare) causes such extreme immunopathy from the release of microbes being displaced from VDR receptor sites, then why does taking more olmesartan recommended to make the herx symptoms go away? Shouldn't it just cause more release of microbes and more herx.
I had not come across the idea of taking increased doses of Benicar to get rid of the immunopathology symptoms that appear when taking Benicar in the Marshall Protocol. Can you remember where you read that? I'd be interested in reading more about it.

When I briefly tried the MP just for a few months, the only immunopathology symptom I developed was the light sensitivity.

But I find this immunopathology effect interesting. I'd like to know whether it is only ME/CFS etc patients who get immunopathology when taking Benicar.
 

junkcrap50

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I had not come across the idea of taking increased doses of Benicar to get rid of the immunopathology symptoms that appear when taking Benicar in the Marshall Protocol. Can you remember where you read that? I'd be interested in reading more about it.
I'll have to look for it. But it was found among instructions on how to implement the Marshall Protocol and patient status updates on how they're doing on the protocol, not any research publications from his group. Also in
 
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Hi guys!!

i'am the one taking Olmesartan reading your forum for close to 10 years already but not actually participating though..

hey @Art Vandelay - nice to see your around - I bet you still did not get anti EMF clothing. ;)

A lot of questions asked here can be answered by simply going to: http://mpkb.org

Also Trevor in last years discovered that electrosmog is one of the things significantly slowing the progress of those on Olmesartan - his paper on this subject is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27412293

You can find more data on Olm and EMF by simply looking up his latest videos over here: https://www.youtube.com/user/DrTrevorMarshall/videos

Here is the original video on CFS treatment with Olmesartan which made me hooked with Trevor's theory:

Yes, herxes from Olm itself can be quite brutal(even for a "tough" guy) - but they are sort of backed up by changes in blood work(inflammation markers) - so I know therapy is working but as others noted it works Too Damn Slow! A couple years should pass before one starts to feel a little bit better(I'am actually thinking I'am at this stage right now unless relapse, lol, so fingers crossed) and most people just don't have enough patience nowadays or can't handle the amount of herx generated by olmesartan itself ... not to mention olmesartan with antibiotics.
 

junkcrap50

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I had not come across the idea of taking increased doses of Benicar to get rid of the immunopathology symptoms that appear when taking Benicar in the Marshall Protocol. Can you remember where you read that? I'd be interested in reading more about it.
From: https://mpkb.org/home/mp/managing_immunopathology
Managing immunopathology (IP)
Patients' goal during the MP should be to maintain tolerable immunopathology as they get well. In cases where IP is becoming intolerable, certain strategies are available including:
  • Adjust olmesartan (Benicar) - Depending on which of olmesartan's two main properties a patient experiences most strongly during a particular period of treatment, increasing or decreasing the dose may help manage immunopathology. For some, taking olmesartan sublingually (under the tongue) can provide immediate relief.
  • Minocycline as a palliative – Minocycline taken more frequently such as every 12-24 hours, it may help reduce symptoms of immunopathology.
  • Take palliative medications – A range of symptom-specific palliative medications can be relied upon in the case of intolerable immunopathology - enquire in the forums at MarshallProtocol.com
  • Light restriction. Sunlight to the skin and eyes can exacerbate symptoms and make symptoms intolerable. This is individual. However, if experiencing intolerable symptoms one will want to reassess their response to every type of light exposure. Indoor lighting above 30 lux or any type of fluorescent lighting has been enough provoke intolerable symptoms for some patients, even when wearing NoIR sunglasses.
Strategy #1: Adjust olmesartan
Taking more frequent or higher doses, or less frequent and lower doses, of olmesartan (Benicar) is often effective at Marshall Protocol patients – roughly 80% or so – feel either substantially better or worse when taking olmesartan. Knowing which kind of patient a person is can help decide which course to take in case of intolerable immunopathology. It is important to experiment during times of relative well-being to see which strategy is most successful.

Increasing olmesartan increases its anti-inflammatory effect
A potent anti-inflammatory, olmesartan decreases levels of Nuclear Factor Kappa B, a protein that stimulates the release of inflammatory cytokines - proteins that generate pain and fatigue.

Olmesartan has been shown to be safe in higher than typical doses. As a temporary replacement for standard dosing for olmesartan, which is 40mg every six hours, patients can:
  • take 40mg of olmesartan every four hours or more frequently; some patients have reported a benefit from taking olmesartan as frequently as every three hours
  • lower the dose to 20mg every two to six hours, but only if that reduces symptoms
When in a crisis, never discontinue Benicar, or increase the dosing interval beyond 6 hours.

Also, there is the option of taking Benicar sublingually, that is, under one's tongue. Some people in the midst of a crisis situation have found it helpful to combine 40mg oral doses at the regular time with an additional 20mg of sublingual Benicar (at minimum three hour intervals) around the clock.

Swallowed olmesartan, which in non-emergency situations is preferred, usually takes between 90 and 300 minutes to be absorbed by the GI tract, depending on whether the stomach is full. Chewing and then putting Benicar under one's tongue can drastically cut the amount of time it takes for the medication to be absorbed.

The sublingual route of medication administration uses the thin epithelium and rich network of capillaries on the underside of the tongue to gain rapid absorption and drug action. Drugs absorbed from the sublingual route have a rapid effect since they enter the bloodstream directly without being metabolized by the liver or being affected by gastric and intestinal enzymes.

Decreasing olmesartan lessens its immune-activating effect
A Vitamin D Receptor agonist, olmesartan turns on the immune response, which can lead to immunopathology. Ideally, a Marshall Protocol patient would take 40 mg of olmesartan 4-6 times a day. The dosing interval is most important, as VDR receptors are quickly liganded and/or broken down by bacterial kinases, with a mean useful lifespan of 3-6 hours. Provided the dosing is kept frequent, every 4-6 hours, immunopathology can sometimes be reduced if the Benicar (olmesartan medoxomil) dosing is lowered to 20 mg every 4-6 hours. More usually, the loss of palliation at the lower dose makes this approach untenable.

A patient or physician should never stop olmesartan in a crisis situation without a slow weaning schedule. The innate immune system remains active after the olmesartan is withdrawn, but the organ-protection offered by the olmesartan is lost, leading to potential organ failure. If discontinuation of the Protocol is necessary, a physician should consult Prof. Marshall to discuss therapeutic options.

Olmesartan has multiple effects: anti-inflammatory, immune stimulating and anti-hypertensive. Activation of the innate immune system via olmesartan activation of the VDR can on its own cause immunopathology (IP) or herx. Early on, this impact may dominate, and the anti-inflammatory effects may not be sufficient to lessen the intensity of the IP. In these circumstances or in anticipation of the possibility of that occurring, ramping up olmesartan over a few days is a wise option. If though the lower dose of olmesartan cause an increase in symptoms, upward adjustment of olmesartan is initiated.

In conclusion, there can be circumstances where some variation in the established protocol may be necessary but this is uncommon and should not be seen as a change of treatment direction for the vast majority of patients. This lower dose is only temporary and almost everyone will ultimately tolerate and benefit from higher dose olmesartan.

Greg Blaney, M.D.
Having learned much more since I first read about the MP, I wonder if you can use Losartan in addition for it's anti-inflammatory effects instead of increasing olmesartan to improve immunopathy. Perhaps that way you could use a low dose of olmesartan for controlled VDR unbinding and use Losartan for immunopathy control.
 

Hip

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Also Trevor in last years discovered that electrosmog is one of the things significantly slowing the progress of those on Olmesartan - his paper on this subject is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27412293
That paper seems pretty dubious: they did not use any placebo control group, so you can take the results with a pinch of salt.



increasing or decreasing the dose may help manage immunopathology.
Interesting, thanks very much for finding the source.



I wonder if you can use Losartan in addition for it's anti-inflammatory effects instead of increasing olmesartan to improve immunopathy.
Losartan and especially candesartan cross the blood-brain barrier better than olmesartan, so assuming ME/CFS involves a brain infection with enterovirus, you might get better results with ARBs which cross the BBB. Olmesartan only poorly crosses the BBB.


I am somewhat confused by this paper by Trevor Marshall which says that olmesartan, losartan, candesartan, valsartan and telmisartan are predicted to be VDR antagonists.

But elsewhere Trevor Marshall says olmesartan works in the Marshall Protocol because it is a VDR agonist.

You can see a table of the different vitamin D receptor affinities these drugs have in this post.
 
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That paper seems pretty dubious: they did not use any placebo control group, so you can take the results with a pinch of salt.
Yeah, well a proper study needs far more financial resources...

Regarding the dosing frequency of Olmesartan - it was noted that less frequent dosing(like 40mg every 12..24 hours) gives mostly palliative(anti-inflammatory) effect - i.e. not much herx. To have an additional immune stimulation effect Olm should be taken every 4..6 hours...
 
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I am somewhat confused by this paper by Trevor Marshall which says that olmesartan, losartan, candesartan, valsartan and telmisartan are predicted to be VDR antagonists.
This paper dated back to 2006. Obviously, Marshall knowledge on Olmesartan expanded since then.

Olmesartan anti-inflammatory effects are multi sourced, for example it even switches macrophages into M2 type
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071465