Well, the logic of flow above is also flawed. If GWI = PTSD, it doesn't follow from anywhere that PTSD = CFS/ME, because first you have to prove that GWI is fully equivalent with CFS. Besides, we already have international consensus criteria that classifies diseases based on evidence. In CFS a central criterium is post-exertional malaise (PEM). Just by looking at this one symptom, the absurdity of equating CFS with PTSD becomes clear, or at least I have yet to read that PTSD revolves around post-exterional malaise.
Case for BioPsychoSocio Cause of CFS
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PTSD is completely different from CFS and GWI, but there is certainly a large overlap between PTSD and fibromyalgia, and between PTSD and GWI.
Here is some material to update your reading: (These are excerpts; bold and UL is mine)
1. PTSD Aand CFS
Journal of ISSN: 2373-6445
JPCPY
Psychology & Clinical Psychiatry
Review Article
Volume 7 Issue 2 - 2017
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Are They Related?
George Lindenfeld1*, George Rozelle2 and Katherine Billiot3
1Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Medical Psychology Center in Asheville, USA
2Diplomate in QEEG and Neurotherapy, USA
3BCIA Certified in Biofeedback & Neurofeedback, USA
Received: July 22, 2016 | Published: February 08, 2017
*Corresponding author: George Lindenfeld, Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Medical Psychology Center in Asheville, USA, Email:
Citation: Lindenfeld G, Rozelle G, Billiot K (2017) Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Are They Related? J Psychol Clin Psychiatry 7(2): 00433. DOI: 10.15406/jpcpy.2017.07.00433
A number of factors have been investigated as possible causes of CFS. The first focuses on disease because some people have developed CFS after having a viral infection [22]. Among those viruses considered as possible triggers are Epstein-Barr virus [23], human herpes virus 6 [24], and mouse leukemia viruses [25]. No conclusive link has been found and rather, this speculation in regards to viral infection and CFS has been debunked [26].
Having Chronic Fatigue, ME, Fibromyalgia etc, commonly co-occurs with severe PTSD/Complex PTSD.
2. June 4, 2015 by Healing From Complex Trauma & PTSD/CPTSD 8 Comments
The above is from http://www.post-traumata.com/post-traumatic-stress-ptsd-tiredness-fatigue.html
I have many the symptoms of Chronic Fatigue and I am aware it is all part of the bigger umbrella of having Complex PTSD... .
3. Volume 157 Issue 2
15 January 2003
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like Illness among Gulf War Veterans: A Population-based Survey of 30,000 Veterans
Han K. Kang Benjamin H. Natelson Clare M. Mahan Kyung Y. Lee Frances M. Murphy
American Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 157, Issue 2, 15 January 2003, Pages 141–148, https://doi.org/10.1093/aje/kwf187
Published: 15 January 2003
1. PTSD Aand CFS
Journal of ISSN: 2373-6445
JPCPY
Psychology & Clinical Psychiatry
Review Article
Volume 7 Issue 2 - 2017
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Are They Related?
George Lindenfeld1*, George Rozelle2 and Katherine Billiot3
1Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Medical Psychology Center in Asheville, USA
2Diplomate in QEEG and Neurotherapy, USA
3BCIA Certified in Biofeedback & Neurofeedback, USA
Received: July 22, 2016 | Published: February 08, 2017
*Corresponding author: George Lindenfeld, Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Medical Psychology Center in Asheville, USA, Email:
Citation: Lindenfeld G, Rozelle G, Billiot K (2017) Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Are They Related? J Psychol Clin Psychiatry 7(2): 00433. DOI: 10.15406/jpcpy.2017.07.00433
A number of factors have been investigated as possible causes of CFS. The first focuses on disease because some people have developed CFS after having a viral infection [22]. Among those viruses considered as possible triggers are Epstein-Barr virus [23], human herpes virus 6 [24], and mouse leukemia viruses [25]. No conclusive link has been found and rather, this speculation in regards to viral infection and CFS has been debunked [26].
Having Chronic Fatigue, ME, Fibromyalgia etc, commonly co-occurs with severe PTSD/Complex PTSD.
2. June 4, 2015 by Healing From Complex Trauma & PTSD/CPTSD 8 Comments
The above is from http://www.post-traumata.com/post-traumatic-stress-ptsd-tiredness-fatigue.html
I have many the symptoms of Chronic Fatigue and I am aware it is all part of the bigger umbrella of having Complex PTSD... .
3. Volume 157 Issue 2
15 January 2003
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like Illness among Gulf War Veterans: A Population-based Survey of 30,000 Veterans
Han K. Kang Benjamin H. Natelson Clare M. Mahan Kyung Y. Lee Frances M. Murphy
American Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 157, Issue 2, 15 January 2003, Pages 141–148, https://doi.org/10.1093/aje/kwf187
Published: 15 January 2003
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I only need to read this one sentence that you quoted to see that there is some massive cognitive dissonance going on. The authors first state that people have developed CFS after viral infection and give a source for that, and further give references for viruses considered as possible triggers. In the next sentence they say that no conclusive link has been found, and they are right that no bulletproof link to a specific virus has been found. Fair enough.
But in the follow-up phrase they say that viral infection and CFS has been debunked. How does not having conclusive proof linking CFS to a specific virus debunk all reported evidence from patients that CFS commonly is triggered by an infection? What are we supposed to think about this? The only way I can understand it is that they mean that yes, CFS sometimes develops after an infection, but the infection plays no role in maintaining the disease.
There might not be a specific virus that links to CFS, but some viral infection combined with genetic factors that triggers the disease. This has not been debunked, and I'm not even sure how it ever could be debunked, because these viruses are present in the healthy population as well, so you cannot just test CFS patients for virus X.
But in the follow-up phrase they say that viral infection and CFS has been debunked. How does not having conclusive proof linking CFS to a specific virus debunk all reported evidence from patients that CFS commonly is triggered by an infection? What are we supposed to think about this? The only way I can understand it is that they mean that yes, CFS sometimes develops after an infection, but the infection plays no role in maintaining the disease.
There might not be a specific virus that links to CFS, but some viral infection combined with genetic factors that triggers the disease. This has not been debunked, and I'm not even sure how it ever could be debunked, because these viruses are present in the healthy population as well, so you cannot just test CFS patients for virus X.
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It's not really a leap of logic. We have studies showing that lack of social support results in the release of inflammatory cytokines, e.g.:
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/635784/abs/
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/635784/abs/
@JES <<I only need to read this one sentence that you quoted to see that there is some massive cognitive dissonance going on....>>
Most people would realize that this has nothing to do per your last complaint: “Well, the logic of flow above is also flawed. If GWI = PTSD, it doesn't follow from anywhere that PTSD = CFS/ME... .” Where the above Post with references does restate the connection as inferenced in preceding posts.
Most people would realize that this has nothing to do per your last complaint: “Well, the logic of flow above is also flawed. If GWI = PTSD, it doesn't follow from anywhere that PTSD = CFS/ME... .” Where the above Post with references does restate the connection as inferenced in preceding posts.
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I read this and felt a little melancholy... . It reminded me of the lone young chimpanzee who was ostracized from the group. Intuitively, you know that had to affect his ‘being’, be it immune system dysfunction or biopsychosocially (with all those ramifications.)
As long as there are 2 or more of us around we’re stuck with it
Yeah, we have yet to create the global social and political systems to prevent it. We might not be able to do so. Even chimpanzees go to war. It might be a primate thing.
Actually it hasn't. This is an overstatement. Its looking very much like severe acute viral infection initiates major metabolic and immune changes. Those changes drive ME. The virus is usually long gone. So the viral infections do not cause ME, in this model, but they are the initiating events. Even mainstream virology is saying the same thing now, at least with respect to acute and severe pathogen infection (not just viruses). When mainstream virology and cutting edge ME research match then you need to pay attention. Current research is looking at very specific metabolic changes, and we might have answers even as early as mid year. That might be that this model is shot down though, we have to wait on the science.
Its also not some people who get CFS after a viral infection. Most people who get CFS get it after a viral infection, and the vast majority if you include non viral infections. A minority get it from physical trauma or poisoning. Other causes seem very rare.
There is old research (Dubbo?, others?) showing severity of initial infection is the strongest predictor of developing a post infection problem. There might however be more than one type.
Its also not some people who get CFS after a viral infection. Most people who get CFS get it after a viral infection, and the vast majority if you include non viral infections. A minority get it from physical trauma or poisoning. Other causes seem very rare.
There is old research (Dubbo?, others?) showing severity of initial infection is the strongest predictor of developing a post infection problem. There might however be more than one type.
If I were to guess where the ME-metabolic-immune thing is going, I would guess right now that during acute infections not only is the patient fighting a life threatening illness, they are typically not eating or eating very little. This might be a critical factor, resulting in energy deficits and a switch to protein catabolism. That might very well happen with soldiers as well if they are engaged in combat or standing long watches. This catabolism might be a critical part of the trigger. Again, we have to wait and see what the science shows.
Now under these conditions a person will most likely say they feel stressed if asked. Yet is that feeling of stress the critical factor?
I am very interested in what is happening to beta cortisol receptors under these conditions. It might be this is part of the adaptation, and leads to cortisol resistance. Or not.
Now under these conditions a person will most likely say they feel stressed if asked. Yet is that feeling of stress the critical factor?
I am very interested in what is happening to beta cortisol receptors under these conditions. It might be this is part of the adaptation, and leads to cortisol resistance. Or not.
Let me make a point about how useless BPS theories are. I do agree that the concept has some clinical validity, as a mnemonic for things to be considered.
Here is the issue. If its biological all the way, its BPS. If its a social problem all the way, its BPS. If its psychological all the way, its BPS. If its any combination, its BPS. You might as well say BPS = feeling sick or unwell, and forget the rest.
Here is the issue. If its biological all the way, its BPS. If its a social problem all the way, its BPS. If its psychological all the way, its BPS. If its any combination, its BPS. You might as well say BPS = feeling sick or unwell, and forget the rest.
Article: http://medcraveonline.com/JPCPY/JPCPY-07-00433.php
A narrative review published in the predatory journal "MedCrave Open access Journal of Psychology & Clinical Psychiatry"?
Have you looked at the reference for [26]?
Wow, that reference is completely irrelevant.
Now reference 26 is mentioned again in the summary with the following:
Which seems more appropriate.
That is not the only missing reference/referencing error in the manuscript! (You can check for yourself). There are other editing/quality issues too, along with long (excessive) stretches of patient testimony/discussion that is not formatted differently from the rest of the text. The overall quality of the article is well, read it for yourself...
The article in general reads as a poorly written advertisement for "RESET therapy".
I think it is clear that this manuscript was not properly peer reviewed (not reviewed at all) or a simple errors like these would have been detected.
Aside:
Funny stories involving that publisher:
https://www.the-scientist.com/?arti...nion--Why-I-Published-in-a-Predatory-Journal/
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2017/07/22/predatory-journals-star-wars-sting/
A narrative review published in the predatory journal "MedCrave Open access Journal of Psychology & Clinical Psychiatry"?
Have you looked at the reference for [26]?
Wow, that reference is completely irrelevant.
Now reference 26 is mentioned again in the summary with the following:
Which seems more appropriate.
That is not the only missing reference/referencing error in the manuscript! (You can check for yourself). There are other editing/quality issues too, along with long (excessive) stretches of patient testimony/discussion that is not formatted differently from the rest of the text. The overall quality of the article is well, read it for yourself...
The article in general reads as a poorly written advertisement for "RESET therapy".
I think it is clear that this manuscript was not properly peer reviewed (not reviewed at all) or a simple errors like these would have been detected.
Aside:
Funny stories involving that publisher:
https://www.the-scientist.com/?arti...nion--Why-I-Published-in-a-Predatory-Journal/
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2017/07/22/predatory-journals-star-wars-sting/
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I see this is a dead, old thread, but there is a fair amount of GWI discussion within - which as a GWoT veteran compels my curiosity.
First, CMI is a completely new acronym to me, and I am a VA patient who has been presenting to VA doctors with complaints of a very chronic, multi-system illness. Perhaps this term is just too new and hasn't percolated down among the VA rank and file. I have also long read conjecture about GWI extending to OEF and OIF veterans like myself, but have never found much in the way of quality evidence when I search. @femtosecond99 or others, if you have any more compelling evidence of GWI linked to OEF and OIF veterans, I am interested.
I'm especially interested in anything that doesn't claim PTSD as an inclusion criteria. I almost certainly don't have PTSD, and doubt the veracity of a 98% prevalence rate because it is a diagnosis the VA, Tricare, and other military and veteran health organizations love to throw around with abandon.
Finally, a big "what if," which I personally believe is important to my own significant downturn in health during and following deployment, and which seemingly nobody mentions, is that many - if not all - deployed service members are given malaria prophylactics. For me, it was doxycycline, but I know as recently as back in the mid-2000s, mefloquine was a common go-to. Unnecessary antibiotic use, even in 100-200mg/daily prophylactic use, quite possibly has negative effects on gut health that no one fully understands. Mefloquine is possibly even worse with it's well-known neuro-psychiatric side effects.
First, CMI is a completely new acronym to me, and I am a VA patient who has been presenting to VA doctors with complaints of a very chronic, multi-system illness. Perhaps this term is just too new and hasn't percolated down among the VA rank and file. I have also long read conjecture about GWI extending to OEF and OIF veterans like myself, but have never found much in the way of quality evidence when I search. @femtosecond99 or others, if you have any more compelling evidence of GWI linked to OEF and OIF veterans, I am interested.
I'm especially interested in anything that doesn't claim PTSD as an inclusion criteria. I almost certainly don't have PTSD, and doubt the veracity of a 98% prevalence rate because it is a diagnosis the VA, Tricare, and other military and veteran health organizations love to throw around with abandon.
Finally, a big "what if," which I personally believe is important to my own significant downturn in health during and following deployment, and which seemingly nobody mentions, is that many - if not all - deployed service members are given malaria prophylactics. For me, it was doxycycline, but I know as recently as back in the mid-2000s, mefloquine was a common go-to. Unnecessary antibiotic use, even in 100-200mg/daily prophylactic use, quite possibly has negative effects on gut health that no one fully understands. Mefloquine is possibly even worse with it's well-known neuro-psychiatric side effects.
I read a book several years ago by a naturopathic doctor, who estimated that as many as 90% of his patients with chronic illnesses had their illnesses begin shortly after a round (or more) of antibiotics.