Carnivore diet

Blake2e

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Anybody with a mast cell disorder try it?

I'm still pretty reactive, but over the past few days I've been easing into it with one carnivore meal a day. After my Xolair next week I'm going to go full carnivore and completely cut off everything else.

The goal of this for me would be to starve out the pathogenic bacteria in my gut and hopefully make me less symptomatic so I can implement the greater part of my plan to hopefully resolve the MCAS issue in a way that a somewhat normal life would be possible.
 

Blake2e

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How are you so sure the "pathogenic" bacteria feed on carbohydrates and not on protein or fat?
Not sure why you put pathogenic in quotes, but yes the primary source of food for bacteria are carbs/sugar molecules. Iy is the precise reason why diets like keto, SCD and low FODMAPS work. Carnivore is just a more extreme version of those elimination diets.
 

Tammy

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Bacteria can feed off dairy, grains, eggs, corn and processed sugar. Going completely carnivore.........you will be missing important vital nutrients from vegetables and fruit.
 

Blake2e

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Bacteria can feed off dairy, grains, eggs, corn and processed sugar. Going completely carnivore.........you will be missing important vital nutrients from vegetables and fruit.
Red meat has enough nutrients and I will be including liver (and other organ meats). Liver is more of a superfood than any veggie or fruit. (https://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood/)

I was including eggs in the diet but I'll need to research that more. Do you have any resources that eggs arent good for dysbiotic/pathogenic bacteria?
 
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Thinktank

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Not sure why you put pathogenic in quotes, but yes the primary source of food for bacteria are carbs/sugar molecules. Iy is the precise reason why diets like keto, SCD and low FODMAPS work. Carnivore is just a more extreme version of those elimination diets.
I'm saying pathogenic bacteria in quotes because from your message it's not clear which bacteria you exactly mean. Also, many alternative labs call some bacteria or fungi pathogenic but it might be completely normal to have those in your gut.

It's not true that glucose is the primary food fuel for bacteria. Some prefer protein/ amino acids, others fat etc. If you compare the microbiome at the phyla level between a carnivore and a vegan you'll see the composition is completey different, bacteroidetes, firmicutes, actinobacteria etc.

SCD was written so many years ago it's full of misinformation.
 

Blake2e

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I'm saying pathogenic bacteria in quotes because from your message it's not clear which bacteria you exactly mean. Also, many alternative labs call some bacteria or fungi pathogenic but it might be completely normal to have those in your gut.

It's not true that glucose is the primary food fuel for bacteria. Some prefer protein/ amino acids, others fat etc. If you compare the microbiome at the phyla level between a carnivore and a vegan you'll see the composition is completey different, bacteroidetes, firmicutes, actinobacteria etc.

SCD was written so many years ago it's full of misinformation.
I have a severe overgrowth Citrobacter koseri and Proteus Mirabilis, which I found through great plans laboratory comprehensive stool analysis. And my gut is devoid of Lactobacillus species.

C. Koseri seems to prefer glucose/carbs (citrate) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/citrobacter-koseri) and P. Mirabilis seems to prefer nitrogen molecules such as from amino acids (https://jb.asm.org/content/195/6/1305)

I see no downside to trying this diet out. If it could help me decrease the population size of just one of those bacteria I would consider it a success.
 

JES

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I guess it depends on what type of bacteria you have an overgrowth of. But generally speaking, all protocols aimed at treating or reducing SIBO seem to hint at lowering intake of starchy carbohydrates. Fermentation in small intestine seems to be a big issue in SIBO and some IBS subgroups. Fermentation can only take place with carbohydrates (sugars), not with fats or proteins.
 

Richard7

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This is not something I would feel entirely comfortable with, I would always want some fibre.

If I was doing it I would do a ketogenic version with MCTs to ensure I was making butyrate and supplement at least with vitamin C which is pretty low in meat: 22mg/100g cooked chicken liver 21mg/100g cooked lamb liver. There is not really any micronutrient absent from meat.

If you are going to do it these would be useful resources http://www.empiri.ca/p/eat-meat-not-too-little-mostly-fat.html
http://www.ketotic.org/p/talks-podcasts.html
 

Blake2e

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This is not something I would feel entirely comfortable with, I would always want some fibre.

If I was doing it I would do a ketogenic version with MCTs to ensure I was making butyrate and supplement at least with vitamin C which is pretty low in meat: 22mg/100g cooked chicken liver 21mg/100g cooked lamb liver. There is not really any micronutrient absent from meat.

If you are going to do it these would be useful resources http://www.empiri.ca/p/eat-meat-not-too-little-mostly-fat.html
http://www.ketotic.org/p/talks-podcasts.html
I think the need for fiber is overblown (http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/food/fiber/). I've tried all sorts and in all different forms over the years and it never did much for my IBS-like symptoms. And due to my MCAS I've had no fiber in the past 2 years (only white chicken/rice) so I'm not concerned about it.

I could get butyrate from ghee or clarified butter, but for now I'm choosing to avoid dairy completely. Ive read accounts of people with casein sensitivity still reacting to it in trace amounts. And I'm trying to avoid casein, especially from north euro cows.

The vitamin C issue raised is covered in your 1st link, as long as I dont "cook my food to death." But I have vitamin C powder that I sometimes use to manage my histamine levels just in case.

Thanks for the links!
 

Richard7

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Yeah, the fibre thing ... I have spent so much time eating vast amounts 50g/day or more. I think it was useful in the short term in that it produced butyrate that could fuel my body and brain, but of course it also produced propionate which seems to be a problem.

Thats why I suggested a keto approach, you would make your own butyrate and obviate much of the need/benefit for fermentable fibre.

I kind of stuffed up on this when I tried a GAPS diet to try to get rid of SIBO 4.5 years ago. When I stopped eating FODMAPS I stopped making SCFAs and my brain stopped working too.

But if you are getting by on a low fibre diet, this is perhaps not an issue for you.

Intellectually I can see that the flipside of all the stories we see and hear about how important your microbiome is in its interactions with your immune system and its production of neurotransmitters and so on is actually an argument for saying if your microbiome is treating you like crap you should ditch it. That is what a fecal transplant is all about.

Plant foods have been so much a part of my diet that I just find it hard to imagine taking that step.

Personally I have been undereating protein most of the time (0.5 -0.7g per kilogram bodyweight). I discovered A) that some combination of ubiquinol a ketogenic diet (or maybe just high dose MCT) and Mk4 relieved my 24/7 lymph system pain; B) that eating more protein brought the lymph system inflammation back; and C) that having more protein made the rest of my body more painful, but came with improvements in PoTS and a better sense of my body.

I do not know why protein leads to lymph system swelling.

I do know that over the years I have got used to not feeling much of my body, and seeing my legs for example moving by reflex as if they were in pain without feeling anything. I wonder if the low ceiling on protein consumption lead to a deficit in signalling molecules and if such a deficit could what is caused part (or all) of my PoTS and that lack of feeling in my body.

So I have been reading about this subject and can see the logic in it, and wish you luck.
 

Blake2e

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Intellectually I can see that the flipside of all the stories we see and hear about how important your microbiome is in its interactions with your immune system and its production of neurotransmitters and so on is actually an argument for saying if your microbiome is treating you like crap you should ditch it. That is what a fecal transplant is all about.
I dont want to completely ditch my microbiome but if I temporarily have to for better symptom control I think it is worth it. My ultimate goal is to rebuild it.

Plant foods have been so much a part of my diet that I just find it hard to imagine taking that step.
Veggies used to be a solid part of my diet too. Especially in the past when I did keto for a year (with low carb veggies). But habits themselves are easy to change.

Personally I have been undereating protein most of the time (0.5 -0.7g per kilogram bodyweight). I discovered A) that some combination of ubiquinol a ketogenic diet (or maybe just high dose MCT) and Mk4 relieved my 24/7 lymph system pain; B) that peating more protein brought the lymph system inflammation back; and C) that having more protein made the rest of my body more painful, but came with improvements in PoTS and a better sense of my body.

I do not know why protein leads to lymph system swelling.

I do know that over the years I have got used to not feeling much of my body, and seeing my legs for example moving by reflex as if they were in pain without feeling anything. I wonder if the low ceiling on protein consumption lead to a deficit in signalling molecules and if such a deficit could what is caused part (or all) of my PoTS and that lack of feeling in my body.

So I have been reading about this subject and can see the logic in it, and wish you luck.
That's a tough situation. I dont know enough about PoTS to say anything. I'm also getting evaluated for it by a Neurologist, my Immunologist strongly suspects it while I have my doubts. But thank you for the encouragement and I wish you the best of luck too.
 

Hope4

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Blake2e

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@Blake2e How are you faring? Did the Carnivore food protocol help (if you were able to go on it)? I hope you are doing well. :)

Here is an article Barry Groves put on his website, Second Opinions, over ten years ago, on eating meat, fat and water, so that the proteolytic bacteria thrive, and the fermentative bacteria get nothing to eat. Someone is maintaining his website. He passed on a few years ago.
I was only able to do it for 30 days before I was forced to drop it since my sensitiviy/symptoms were spiking (due to drugs losing their efficacy on me as I became more allergic/intolerant to them). One of my million triggers are fats of any kind and carnivore is a strict keto diet. I'm sure if I did for 4-6 months I'd very likely experience some level of improvement.

My current strategy is to fix my dysbiois and remove pathogenic bacteria with grapefruit seed extract and black cumin seed oil. Then get back on a very low carb diet as that is what is most healthy and what my body had in the past responded best to in terms of energy levels, mood and maintaining a healthy lean physique. Good chance, I might do zerocarb/carnivore again but we'll see what happens with my dysbiosis treatment plan first.
 

Hope4

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@Blake2e I'm glad you are taking good care of yourself. I wish you success with the dysbiosis treatment. :) I, too, find food choices a challenge.
 

Blake2e

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@Blake2e I'm glad you are taking good care of yourself. I wish you success with the dysbiosis treatment. :) I, too, find food choices a challenge.
Ive eaten only plain white rice and boiled white chicken for almost 2 years. Eating only beef and lamb is a huge step up for me. But if I dont absolutely have to do it, then I wont, having more food choices is always nice. The low carb diet I'm going to do after dysbiosis treatment will allow for about 10 grams of carbs per day. Dont want to do it now as that makes pathogenic bacteria go into hiding and harder and longer to treat.
 

Hope4

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@Blake2e My heart goes out to you. :hug: I know two others who have such strict diets, and it is quite a challenge. Your posts give me much to think about, re: MCAS and pathogenic bacteria.

If you feel up to posting more about your protocol, I'd appreciate it. But, only if it does not tax you.

All the best to you. :)
 

Blake2e

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@Blake2e My heart goes out to you. :hug: I know two others who have such strict diets, and it is quite a challenge. Your posts give me much to think about, re: MCAS and pathogenic bacteria.

If you feel up to posting more about your protocol, I'd appreciate it. But, only if it does not tax you.

All the best to you. :)
I'm keeping it simple. Grapefruit seed extract is supposed to be very effective for C. koseri and P. Mirabilis. And Im using black cumin seed oil b/c it is a biofilm disruptor and also antimicrobial. It will probably take a few months to clear out the pathogenic bacteria, we'll see what happens.