Cardio fitness in cfsme

[heapsreal]

First I just want to say that this is aimed at cfsers functioning at an 8+ out of 10. The late Dr Martin Lerner mentioned not exercising until one is atleast an 8 out of 10 function wise.

I've been quite good for awhile now at an 8 or a 9. What I find is strength training is much easier to improve then cardiovascular fitness which is almost impossible.

I'm just going off cardio fitness by my resting heart rate after chilling at night in the recliner watching TV or first thing in the morning when I wake up. I don't have obvious pots issues if at all. My resting heart rate is high 80s bpm. Also going off general stamina in my weight training and general life.

Last 6 months I've been going to the gym regularly 3 times a week, work has been minimal but to long to explain here. The first month was hard with DOMS/Muscle soreness but I did have good strength increases and some increases in stamina.
After a couple of months of this I started to cardio on an exercise bike for 20-30min 3 times a week keeping my heart rate in the 120s. After 3 months of this I can't say my stamina improved at all and my resting heart rate was still in the high 80s. My strength has increased alot, muscle memory pre cfs helps but I find as I get stronger and use heavier wts, I've had to cut the volume I use down considerably. But with no increases in stamina or resting heart rate I stopped cardio training.

I understand that what I do for training is out of reach of most cfsers, hopefully you can get to an 8 out of 10 and then improve fitness from there. Although I look alot more impressive bench pressing a 1 rep max than walking say a km where it's stop and start. But those cfsers functioning at 8 or 9 out of 10 who train, what's your experience and anything you have found helpful??

There definitely seems a barrier in increase cardio fitness and stamina compared to strength. I do get some pem but generally a day and I'm OK. As I mentioned before my work situation has changed and I can rest as much as I need, more or less.

Cheers

 

[Wishful]

I don't to training, and I don't measure my HR, but for activities such as hiking, biking, digging soil and sawing wood (big old handsaw), I seem to increase my capacity normally. For road repair, I might dig 6 wheelbarrow loads before calling it quits, but work up to maybe 20 loads after a week or so. Biking seems more limited by butt/saddle pain.

 

[Mary]

@heapsreal - I'm really glad you're able to do all of that! Is there anything in particular which you credit for getting to an 8 out of 10?

 

[Florida Guy]

My theory is that those below 8 out of 10 can still do some exercise and benefit from it. I'm at a lower level but I can walk a certain distance every day without pem. I can do certain things without pem or crashing. If I don't do them I will get weaker. When pwme get to a severe stage they may not be able to do any extra walking or any sort of exercise. So I think its important to do your limit without going over each day so that you avoid pem and manage to keep muscles in shape. That should keep most people from getting weaker and not get severe or worse

 

[heapsreal]

My theory is that those below 8 out of 10 can still do some exercise and benefit from it. I'm at a lower level but I can walk a certain distance every day without pem. I can do certain things without pem or crashing. If I don't do them I will get weaker. When pwme get to a severe stage they may not be able to do any extra walking or any sort of exercise. So I think its important to do your limit without going over each day so that you avoid pem and manage to keep muscles in shape. That should keep most people from getting weaker and not get severe or worse

Definitely agree. Under 8/10 need to stay within their level of pem. I think when 8+/10 one can push it abit if they have time to rest etc

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal - I'm really glad you're able to do all of that! Is there anything in particular which you credit for getting to an 8 out of 10?

Probably time and years on antivirals and the last 7 months I've basically stopped work, so can rest when needed.
If I were to put myself in a subgroup it would be herpes virus mostly to varicella.
Sleep meds definitely have helped.
Crap load of vitamins I hope have helped. HRT(Testosterone, dhea, pregnenolone) have helped.
Maintaining my faith and realising this isn't the only life we will live. This life last the blink of an eye compared to eternity.

 

[junkcrap50]

Keeping your hr while doing cardio at 120 bpm and in zone 2 is good and the right approach. That's the best way to improve cardio endurance. ....For healthy people.

The zone 2 range at ~120 bpm is just an indicator / marker for where one is on the lactate performance curve. See pics below.

However, with ME/CFS our lactate levels increase very easily with an exertion level where most people wouldn't generate any lactate. So our aerobic and anaerobic thresholds are much lower than healthy people. Thus the zone 2 or 120bpm recommendation for cardio wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for me/cfs patients. 120bpm might put me/cfs patients in zone 4 in terms of anaerobic threshold/lactate levels.

So, you might consider doing cardio while keeping your HR at a lower level than 120bpm , say like at/around 100-110 bpm. Since your resting HR is in the 80s, this would be very difficult to do and you would have to do something like cycling with zero resistance.

 

[junkcrap50]

Also, important to note. Progress with Zone 2 training is very slow. One place online when searching it says it can take 4-5 months to see progress. So perhaps more time trying it?

Also, recheck/recalculate your Zone 2 heart rate zones. I thought 120-130 was ~Zone 2, but looking online just now most calculators/recommendations seems higher than what I remember.

 

[heapsreal]

Keeping your hr while doing cardio at 120 bpm and in zone 2 is good and the right approach. That's the best way to improve cardio endurance. ....For healthy people.

The zone 2 range at ~120 bpm is just an indicator / marker for where one is on the lactate performance curve. See pics below.
View attachment 54255View attachment 54256

However, with ME/CFS our lactate levels increase very easily with an exertion level where most people wouldn't generate any lactate. So our aerobic and anaerobic thresholds are much lower than healthy people. Thus the zone 2 or 120bpm recommendation for cardio wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for me/cfs patients. 120bpm might put me/cfs patients in zone 4 in terms of anaerobic threshold/lactate levels.

So, you might consider doing cardio while keeping your HR at a lower level than 120bpm , say like at/around 100-110 bpm. Since your resting HR is in the 80s, this would be very difficult to do and you would have to do something like cycling with zero resistance.

Thanks, interesting.