Cannabis and tobacco use with MTHFR

Matt_C

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Hi all,

I've searched on this site and on google but nothing much comes up about the use of cannabis and tobacco if you have MTHFR problems. I came across the following piece of research that shows glutathione depletion is one of the many ways tobacco smoke causes its many diseases: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2111221/

This article relating to the use of cannabis states that intracellular glutathione is reduced by 81%: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10340948

This all sounds fairly unappealing to someone using these substances. Does anyone have any idea in pragmatic terms how harmful these substances are while trying to recover from severe vitamin deficiencies with CFS, neurological/brain dysfunction, etc? I had given up tobacco for a couple of months, but started having one or two in the morning. I noticed a couple of times I experienced nausea after having one in the afternoon around 4pm so just have the morning one or two now as it doesn't seem to cause nausea. The nausea may have been something else though. I like them, obviously, but i'm looking for a good reason to give them away for good :).

I also use cannabis from time to time and i'm currently enjoying its effects of an evening. It helps with my sleep which has been a problem for a long time, plus I enjoy the escapism. I re-started it a month ago to help break a cycle of severe insomnia. I'm just starting to get my health back after starting my methylation protocol but have quite a way to go. My sleep has improved too but I still like to have this as a crutch, but i'd happily give it away if it's likely to cause me harm. I don't plan to use it much longer anyway but if I could use it medicinally at all while doing the methylation protocol i'd be interested to know.
 

GhostGum

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Just vape both and it should be fine? Especially vape the nicotine, dump the tobacco.

I think cannabis studies on lungs is pretty mixed as well and so many over the past decades is unreliable due to politics and bias; but the observation of declined glutathione is interesting here.

There is a counter here, so who really knows,

http://medigardens.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/may-2010-cannabinoids-do-not-cause.html

Started cannabis again myself about 6 months ago, I am 2+ years in on methylation supplements, but I am only using small amounts with a vaporizer. As long as I keep improving I am certainly not worried, and the benefits of the cannabis, psychologically and physically have just been excellent.
 

ahmo

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I've spent the past 3 years getting my methylation under control. I have a long term on-and-off relationship w/ cannabis. It was essential when I had severe insomnia. I quit after the insomnia was solved. But later found it be an antioxidant. It definitely helps w/ my oxidative stress/peroxynitrite symptoms, which has been my main project this past year.

http://www.truthonpot.com/2012/11/01/cannabis-a-powerful-antioxidant/

http://www.collective-evolution.com...-mitochondria-and-remove-damaged-brain-cells/

A recent study conducted by Andras Biokei-Gorzo at the Institute of Molecular Psychiatry at the University of Bonn in Germany is suggesting that marijuana(or the activation of the brain’s cannabinoid system) triggers the release of antioxidants, which act as a cleansing mechanism. This process is known to remove damaged cells and improve the efficiency of mitochondria. Mitochondria is the energy source that powers cells. The study was published in Philosophical Transactions Of The Royal Society, B. You can read the entire study http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing....ract?sid=20cf2c23-e4fd-49e3-9398-ec8be2e00226.

These discoveries shed new insight on how natural marijuana cannabinoids hold the capacity to literally kill the brain inflammation responsible for causing cognitive decline, neural failure, and brain degeneration. By supplying these receptor sites with cannabinoids, patients may be able to overcome brain conditions like Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, Huntington’s disease, and more, not to mention premature brain aging. The human brain contains an extensive network of special receptor sites that modulate nervous system function only when activated by the appropriate cannabinoid compounds, which are found in the marijuana plant.

Cannabinoids refer to any of a group of related compounds that include cannabinol and the active constituents of cannabis. They activate canbinoid receptors in the body. The body itself produces compounds called endocannabinoids and they play a role in many processes within the body that help to create a healthy environment. Cannabinoids also play a role in immune system generation and re-generation. The body regenerates best when it’s saturated with Phyto-Cannabinoids. Cannabinoids can also be found in Cannabis. Cannabinoids may very well be the best cancer
 
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ahmo

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Thanks for that @ahmo. Insomnia/broken sleep has been a big problem for me too. When did the insomnia resolve for you? Was it through methylation or did you do something else?
Yes, methylation. At some point I got enough B12 and my neruological symptoms, including insomnia, disappeared. I had life-long tendency toward insomnia, very sensitive sleeper, which became chronic w/ ME. No more.:woot:

Another link:
http://www.zamnesia.com/content/284-vaporizer-temperatures-for-cannabis
 

Matt_C

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Yes, methylation. At some point I got enough B12 and my neruological symptoms, including insomnia, disappeared. I had life-long tendency toward insomnia, very sensitive sleeper, which became chronic w/ ME. No more.:woot:

That must feel amazing @ahmo, well done. I've read a few more of your posts, I think we have some similarities symptom-wise. I'm not sure if you've written about it elsewhere, but I have a few more questions if you don't mind. Please point me to old posts if you've talked about it somewhere else.

How long did it take for the insomnia to disappear? What dose of mb12 were you at when it resolved? How did you go about titrating up to the big doses that brought about the relief? I saw you got to as high as 25mg. Do you think I could just start taking that much now or titrate up? I'm about a month into it and i'm tolerating 5mg well and have definite start-up symptoms that are mostly tolerable and not unpleasant. Although I do get some fatigue but i'm not sure what that's from yet.

I also ramped methylfolate up to 1600mcg today from 800-1200 a day. I've been adjusting my doses, it's a bit haphazard unfortunately as i'm confused about methylfolate. But I decided to ramp it up to see what happened and whether it would change any of my symptoms. I think it has. Nothing terribly unpleasant has happened anyway. I read in someone else's post that you didn't recommend this and to titrate up 100-200mcg per day or two. But then Freddd goes on to say to ramp it up to 4x-8x the normal dose to deal with donut hole folate insufficiency. I really have no idea yet what my symptoms are due to. It might all just be startup.

And thanks for the link, I have a portable vape that requires a lighter, it's not very good in that I can't control the temperature very well. I have an electric one in Melbourne, i'll pick it up when i'm down there next.
 

ahmo

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How long did it take for the insomnia to disappear? What dose of mb12 were you at when it resolved? How did you go about titrating up to the big doses that brought about the relief? I saw you got to as high as 25mg. Do you think I could just start taking that much now or titrate up? I'm about a month into it and i'm tolerating 5mg well and have definite start-up symptoms that are mostly tolerable and not unpleasant. Although I do get some fatigue but i'm not sure what that's from yet.
I'd have to review my scribbled notes to answer how long it took or what level of B12 made a difference. A number of us have shared the experience that it appears necessary to build up stores, after long-standing deficiencies. I would not recommend just jumping into high doses. Maybe @whodathunkit has a different view on this, she has a long experience w/ B12, including injecting.

I also ramped methylfolate up to 1600mcg today from 800-1200 a day. I've been adjusting my doses, it's a bit haphazard unfortunately as i'm confused about methylfolate. But I decided to ramp it up to see what happened and whether it would change any of my symptoms. I think it has. Nothing terribly unpleasant has happened anyway. I read in someone else's post that you didn't recommend this and to titrate up 100-200mcg per day or two. But then Freddd goes on to say to ramp it up to 4x-8x the normal dose to deal with donut hole folate insufficiency. I really have no idea yet what my symptoms are due to. It might all just be startup.
You seem to be doing well with higher doses, or w/ rapidly increasing. Unfortunately, it's not clear which people will do well, and who suffers from bad symptoms. This is pretty much a suck-it-and-see situation. A certain amount of caution is suggested. And a certain amount of courage is needed.;)

I used self-testing to establish my dosages. So when I increased folate, I would ask body whether or not to increase B12. Generally, I was using close to a 1:1 ratio. I was able to decrease folate needs by taking it sublingual instead of swallowing.
 

Matt_C

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I'm a little further along with regards to my health than many other people here on this forum so perhaps i'll do ok with ramping up my doses fairly quickly. I was diagnosed with CFS/ME in 2008 but had been struggling badly for 5-6 years before that. I started the Marshall Protocol in September 2008 and stuck with that for five years. That resolved many of my CFS/ME symptoms, mainly the symptoms in my body with a marginal effect on my neurology/brain. I got to a point where my body is quite strong, I can work full time but with difficulty (lots of sick leave), and manage a low-key social life outside of work (although lately i've been very antisocial). My digestion is in pretty good shape, my body is fairly strong and I can exercise/work out without post exertional malaise. My muscle tone is pretty good. It's mostly the neurological symptoms that remain. I'll update my signature line to reflect my history/progress soon.
 
Tobacco is toxic for a variety of reasons. Commercial cigarettes are loaded with all kinds of toxic additives. Natural tobacco would be an improvement, but still toxic.

Vaping nicotine could also have issues with the excipients used (the stuff other than the nicotine).

Smoking in general is a toxic delivery method.

Cannabis the herb isn't toxic like tobacco is.

Eating cannabis would be the least toxic method of delivery. Vaping it (just the straight herb) would be the second least toxic.

Street cannabis may have chemicals or pesticides added to it. Legal cannabis should be cleaner.

The two studies you linked to were in regard to smoking tobacco and cannabis.
 

Matt_C

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Here's some more research relating to cannabis use and methylation. This is new research that shows deleterious generational changes in methylation patterns in the offspring of parents who used cannabis. Third and fourth generation offspring also show some changes.

https://www.med.upenn.edu/ngg/user_docs/Watsonetal-DNAMethylTHCcross-generation.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26044905

My question is, what happens to the methylation of current users? I would assume similar changes to methylation. But if this were the case, surely the incidence of chronic disease would be closely associated with marijuana use, right? I can't really interpret this information, and my brain is mush right now, but there does indeed appear to be cause for concern about the use of marijuana.
 

ScottTriGuy

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Just my n=1, but for me, on the whole, the benefits of vaping marijuana (decreased anxiety, increased sense of well being, decreased inflammation, increased nuerogenesis, decreased nausea, anti-cancer) out weigh the negative (cost).

Personally, I believe marijuana has prevented negative cognitive effects of ME in me - I don't have depression and had my memory tested (vaped prior) this past summer and it had not declined at all compared to same tests done over a decade earlier - in spite of being older, sicker and what some would consider to be heavy use.

I'm suspicious of most govt funded marijuana research.
 

Matt_C

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I don't think this research was government funded, it was conducted at the Icahn School of Medicine.

I also feel better when using it, and i've used so much for so long that it's probably too late to worry about. It was a major crutch for me during the peak of my CFS/ME. However, i'm also wondering whether using the stuff in the first place was one of the triggers of my "acquired" (doctor's words) methylation problems and CFS/ME. My dad was a smoker so his use perhaps set me up for these problems.

I guess i'm a little concerned that continuing to use it might keep me sick, but that doesn't seem to be the experience of others who are well into the methylation protocol.
 
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ahmo

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I have been and on-and-off user of marijuana through the years. When B12 resolved my horrific insomnia, I stopped vaping. But 9 months later I was again feeling edgy and not good within myself. I felt better after smoking (of course), but noticed it was helping a particular set of symptoms. That's why I began researching antioxidant properties. Antioxidants were my main focus through 2015. My body came to prefer food-based sources, acai, carrots, seed/nut mix. And marijuana, which can be long lasting in its effects.