Bains Dérivatifs--Cold Water Therapy

[cman89]

Isn't improvement in sleep improvement in the ANS? She indicates that sleep was the first of the improvement, so there must have been other things. She just doesn't say what.

I reckon that assumption would not be far fetched.

 

[anne_likes_red]

How did you impelment Dr. Kruse's protocol?

I did face plunges (as JKruse recommends) in increasingly cold water for a couple of weeks and started finishing showers with cool water....working down to the coldest setting - only briefly at first.
Then I started with baths, which were easier than showers, of 10 minutes in approx 60 degrees F water. I didn't have a suitable thermometer in the beginning so I'm sure of the exact temperature. I worked down to 50 F for 60 minutes over 5 - 6 months.( Pls feel free to message me if you want more specifics.)

I have to tell you my first attempts were stressful....not the bath so much as the struggle to warm up after. Actually the baths were bad and the warm-ups horrendous (I suffered mild hypothermia). I don't recommend doing this without someone to check on you. I don't recommend risking hypothermia at all. I would also recommend using heat to help re-warm (before you adapt to where you heat yourself in response to cold on the skin) if that makes you comfortable.
Just to differentiate between cold stress and cold adaptation.....your body should adapt after repeated cold exposure ("stress") on the skin. That's not to say everyone will of course! I personally experienced signs of adapting from 3 weeks after starting cold baths. My temperature began rising after I got in the cold water. (Later on, my temperature started rising in anticipation of a cold bath!)

After about 5 weeks my body temperature taken in the morning and early evening was normal (98 - 98.6) more often than not. Before, since early adolescence, my temperature was usually 95 - 96 degrees. I dreaded the onset of Winter and found it so hard to warm up.

I've been ice bathing for 2 1/2 years now. Though his year I stopped at the start of September - that's Spring here.
I'm solidly adapted to cold temperatures - or cool ones anyway. I haven't used any heating in the house (when I'm home alone) the past two years and I haven't worn a Winter coat in all that time either. (I do live in a relatively temperate climate I guess? No snow here but we do get frosts.) I'm comfortable sleeping outside, and inside I use little bedding.

Improvements, apart from sleep, were with normalising body temperature, my spleen stopped being so swollen, and my fitness level increased to where I stopped feeling breathless climbing hills or stairs. I've been well enough to get out of the house 20 - 25 hours a week. I'm able to accompany my kids and be involved in their activities, and I do volunteer work. I still have ME, but I'm much better than I was a few years ago...and I'm much happier in Winter.
I'm planning to resume cold baths in Autumn....once or twice a week seems enough these days because I get cold stimulus (stressful before adaptation, not so afterwards) just from wearing less, using no heat etc.

^^ Hope that explains well enough. Anne.

 

[cman89]

I did face plunges (as JKruse recommends) in increasingly cold water for a couple of weeks and started finishing showers with cool water....working down to the coldest setting - only briefly at first.
Then I started with baths, which were easier than showers, of 10 minutes in approx 60 degrees F water. I didn't have a suitable thermometer in the beginning so I'm sure of the exact temperature. I worked down to 50 F for 60 minutes over 5 - 6 months.( Pls feel free to message me if you want more specifics.)

I have to tell you my first attempts were stressful....not the bath so much as the struggle to warm up after. Actually the baths were bad and the warm-ups horrendous (I suffered mild hypothermia). I don't recommend doing this without someone to check on you. I don't recommend risking hypothermia at all. I would also recommend using heat to help re-warm (before you adapt to where you heat yourself in response to cold on the skin) if that makes you comfortable.
Just to differentiate between cold stress and cold adaptation.....your body should adapt after repeated cold exposure ("stress") on the skin. That's not to say everyone will of course! I personally experienced signs of adapting from 3 weeks after starting cold baths. My temperature began rising after I got in the cold water. (Later on, my temperature started rising in anticipation of a cold bath!)

After about 5 weeks my body temperature taken in the morning and early evening was normal (98 - 98.6) more often than not. Before, since early adolescence, my temperature was usually 95 - 96 degrees. I dreaded the onset of Winter and found it so hard to warm up.

I've been ice bathing for 2 1/2 years now. Though his year I stopped at the start of September - that's Spring here.
I'm solidly adapted to cold temperatures - or cool ones anyway. I haven't used any heating in the house (when I'm home alone) the past two years and I haven't worn a Winter coat in all that time either. (I do live in a relatively temperate climate I guess? No snow here but we do get frosts.) I'm comfortable sleeping outside, and inside I use little bedding.

Improvements, apart from sleep, were with normalising body temperature, my spleen stopped being so swollen, and my fitness level increased to where I stopped feeling breathless climbing hills or stairs. I've been well enough to get out of the house 20 - 25 hours a week. I'm able to accompany my kids and be involved in their activities, and I do volunteer work. I still have ME, but I'm much better than I was a few years ago...and I'm much happier in Winter.
I'm planning to resume cold baths in Autumn....once or twice a week seems enough these days because I get cold stimulus (stressful before adaptation, not so afterwards) just from wearing less, using no heat etc.

^^ Hope that explains well enough. Anne.

very interesting. Wonder how much of your adaptation was physical vs psychological. Still, both are very beneficial

 

[JAM]

very interesting. Wonder how much of your adaptation was physical vs psychological. Still, both are very beneficial

I doubt is was psychological, if only I could change my body temp by thinking it!

 

[JAM]

Personal question for those of you who have had success with cold therapies: What is your body type? It seems that the sites that recommend it are based in weight loss. I am currently at a healthy weight, but tend to run underweight when I can exercise and maintain healthy muscle mass. So I'm wondering if the cold therapy may be detrimental to someone with my body type, or still helpful in other ways.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I doubt is was psychological, if only I could change my body temp by thinking it!

Well, to be fair, anticipating the bath involved getting a lot of ice out of the freezer - even the cold air from the freezer (or fridge) on my face causes me to warm up internally...same with a breeze from the south. I've never tried to warm up just by thinking....s'pose I could give it a shot.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Personal question for those of you who have had success with cold therapies: What is your body type? It seems that the sites that recommend it are based in weight loss. I am currently at a healthy weight, but tend to run underweight when I can exercise and maintain healthy muscle mass. So I'm wondering if the cold therapy may be detrimental to someone with my body type, or still helpful in other ways.

Not sure what my body type is. Average? (Is that a type?) I lost a couple of cm around the waist and gained muscle - probably just because of increase in exercise enabled by feeling better. There does seem to be a weight loss angle to much of what's written about cold therapy! I don't know anyone who lost weight personally.
I was worried about losing weight but my appetite increased - again maybe because of increased activity? Though shivering (which happened a lot initially) does burn energy.
Long story short LOL...Overall my weight stayed the same but my waist got smaller and I increased muscle in my arms and legs.

 

[cman89]

I havent really had success per se, but I have always been lean with a fair amount of muscle, 'cept of course being sick has sapped me of some muscle so I do get cold a bit easier. Hoping I can build up a tolerance somehow

 

[South]

Possible easier method for Bains Derivatifs:

(Bains Derivatifs is what this thread started with, it is different than cold showers or baths, it is strictly applying a cold wet clot to specific areas while the rest of the body remains warm -- the first page of this thread explains the areas of the body involved)

@Asklipia I thought of another possible way to do Bains Derivatifs, but have no idea whether this would work as well. Do you have any thoughts on this:

For those of us who cannot sit in a bathtub or over a toilet to do it, how about placing one or two thickly folded towels on a chair, setting a bowl of ice water nearby, and using a cloth dipped into the ice water (and lightly wrung out) to lightly rub on the body areas? The small amount of water in the wrung-out cloth that drips off of the body would be caught by the towels, to avoid getting the floor wet. If floor isn't a water resistant surface, perhaps even putting a sheet of plastic under the chair to catch errant drips.

I have a severe aversion to sitting in any water (even just a tiny bit) that isn't nice and toasty warm, and the method of sitting in the bathtub to do Bains D. would slowly trickle cold water down onto the surface I was sitting on - I just wouldn't do it. I just can't sit in those chilly bits of water (or even sit in tepid water that is slowly getting cooler)

The toilet method wouldn't work in my house either, too many people use it for, well, toilet purposes ... and really sitting on any kind of ceramic type seat for more than a minute or so would bother my "sitting on something cold" phobia.

But sitting on folded towels, ahhh...warm and soft, that sounds like something I could do.

Do you think it would be effective? I haven't tried it yet.

 

[perchance dreamer]

I don't remember if I've ever posted about this, but Tacoma, WA, has a Korean day spa for women. They have pools of hot water and cold water next to each other.

I soaked in the hot pool and then jumped into the cold pool. It was shocking, but afterward I felt like a million bucks.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I forgot to mention in my previous that cold therapy has helped me with thermoregulation in general, so I don't get wiped out by the heat in summer either.
Anne.

PS I know a couple of people with Raynauds who have not responded well to cold therapy.

 

[Asklipia]

Bains Derivatifs is what this thread started with, it is different than cold showers or baths, it is strictly applying a cold wet clot to specific areas while the rest of the body remains warm -- the first page of this thread explains the areas of the body involved

@South Thank you for noticing that Bains Derivatifs is NOT Cold Water Therapy as favored by Kruze and others. The moderators here have decided to add Cold Water Therapy to my thread. I did not object because I realized that nobody was interested in Bains Derivatifs, for reasons I don't fully understand, maybe cultural.
I thought that if more people came to the thread because of Kruze, at least they would read about Bains Derivatifs and it might stick in their memory, and when they would be desperate enough they might try them and it would help them.

As you must realize, I am not selling anything here. In fact I only posted about Bains Derivatifs because someone pestered me to find out what had worked for me. It was not easy to refuse. I am trying to help.

Possible easier method for Bains Derivatifs:
I thought of another possible way to do Bains Derivatifs, but have no idea whether this would work as well. Do you have any thoughts on this:

For those of us who cannot sit in a bathtub or over a toilet to do it, how about placing one or two thickly folded towels on a chair, setting a bowl of ice water nearby, and using a cloth dipped into the ice water (and lightly wrung out) to lightly rub on the body areas? The small amount of water in the wrung-out cloth that drips off of the body would be caught by the towels, to avoid getting the floor wet. If floor isn't a water resistant surface, perhaps even putting a sheet of plastic under the chair to catch errant drips.

I have a severe aversion to sitting in any water (even just a tiny bit) that isn't nice and toasty warm, and the method of sitting in the bathtub to do Bains D. would slowly trickle cold water down onto the surface I was sitting on - I just wouldn't do it. I just can't sit in those chilly bits of water (or even sit in tepid water that is slowly getting cooler)

The toilet method wouldn't work in my house either, too many people use it for, well, toilet purposes ... and really sitting on any kind of ceramic type seat for more than a minute or so would bother my "sitting on something cold" phobia.

But sitting on folded towels, ahhh...warm and soft, that sounds like something I could do.

Do you think it would be effective? I haven't tried it yet.

What about trying it out? Then you can report! It would be nice if you could read the explanations I gave in the beginning. Nowhere do I say that you have to sit in water.
Good luck!
Asklipia

 

[South]

@Asklipia Thanks for the reply. I will try the sitting-on-towels method that I described.

Most people don't have my odd aversion to sitting on a non-warm surface. (and I count sitting in a dry bathtub and on a dry toilet seat as a non-warm surface, it just gives me the chills, no matter how warm the room is. I'm weird that way!)

I'll post again after I try it for a few weeks.

 

[Lillybelle]

I havent really had success per se, but I have always been lean with a fair amount of muscle, 'cept of course being sick has sapped me of some muscle so I do get cold a bit easier. Hoping I can build up a tolerance somehow

I did cold water therapy for around 9 months as it was suggested as an hpa regulator by the specialist.

On the plus side I developed more courage than I knew I had. Going into the sea in midwinter Melb/ Australia gets down to 5 degrees air temp in winter , windchill can go 10 degrees below that. Sea temp probably about 12.
Also "always felt better" immediately after getting out. Also better sleep. But crashed as soon as I got home.
When I worked out the energy I was expending in the cold water (about 20 mins) was exhausting me more than helping me I stopped.

Ive had a very slow but steady overall improvement since I stopped. Howver, that could be:
1. Coincidence, generally improving over time
2. Due to methylation protocal
3. Due to long term change in diet.

My immune system definately did not improve and I had a chest infection for 5 of the months I was doing it.
My suggestion L If yr immune system is not improving while doing it.Pair back any activity and rest. As hard as that sounds.

For me doing anything was better psychologically than doing nothing. And that I believe was to my detriment, More concentration these days on meditation, visualisation and forced proactive resting.

 

[cman89]

I have promised myself that every shower for the next week will be in cold water. We will see how that goes

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

In 1980 (when I was well) I read about the benefits of cold water immersion in a book and it's been so long ago, I forget what the benefits were! It might have been beneficial to increase blood flow to the lower limbs. Anyway, this was the procedure:

1. Draw a bath using only cold water. There should be enough water so that once you are sitting in it, all parts of your legs are entirely covered and parts of the hips too (a big fuzzy here remembering the exact level).
2. While you are immersed you should wear a sweater or sweatshirt to keep yourself warm.
3. Aim for ten minutes (fuzzy here again).
4. Important! When you get out, wrap yourself in a wool blanket mummy style, lie down on your bed and cover yourself with as many warm covers as you can find. Allow for maybe at least an hour to re-warm yourself in bed.

I seem to recall feeling a bit rejuvenated. I recall mentioning this protocol to a massage therapist and she thought it would be massively detoxifying. I didn't research it much, as in 1980 the Internet did not exist. I didn't repeat the protocol, but I don't think there would have been any harm in trying it again.

I don't know if I've got the guts to try it again, as the cold water immersion takes some nerves.

 

[Sushi]

I don't know if I've got the guts to try it again, as the cold water immersion takes some nerves.

I did the cold baths with the addition of ice--not pleasant for me. I did it for a while but didn't notice anything except being cold!

Sushi

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

I did the cold baths with the addition of ice--not pleasant for me. I did it for a while but didn't notice anything except being cold!

Sushi

I think for someone who is ill, putting this stress on the body could also be questionable. A well person could recover in an hour's time, but it may initiate a crash for a fragile person. I have no desire to repeat the process. I think when I tried it before, I was an active runner and wanted to get rid of some leg soreness.

 

[South]

Update on my post #89 in this thread for the Bains D.: I tried the idea of sitting on an ordinary chair, using a wet cloth wrung out from ice water. Also tried it in a chair using a freezer gel-cold pack.
For both of these methods, the only time I noticed anything was if it happened to be one of the days that I had some lymph congestion in my neck - these two methods of Bains. D. gave a slight increase in blood flow or lymph flow or something I could feel in my neck, relieving a little of the congestion there (even though the Bains D applies cold to the groin, not the neck)

But that's it, not that much response really. I hope others find more use in it.

If I didn't hate being cold so much, I might try the full body cold water immersions some people do, instead. - I have symptoms of low glycogen storage in my liver (prone to hypoglycemia) though, so per someone's comment that being cold can sap glycogen, I'd probably eat a full meal first.

 

[Calathea]

I am lying in bed with a cold pack down my trousers! I've been using them for pain relief, and to my surprise I can tolerate them (I still get freezing cold, I'm typing this with wrist warmers on), so I thought I'd try the BD variation using cold packs. It's more practical for me, the cloth-and-water method sounds too exhausting and overall chilly. According to a site I found, if you're using cold packs you should use them for an hour or two, presumably because they're less efficient. I wonder if they'd help pelvic pain?