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Atlas Orthogonal

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Has anyone done this? If so, did you see results? I just had standing MRI's done and it it showed my atlas out of alignment and decreased csf flow to my brain. I have gone 4 times for adjustments but haven't noticed anything yet. Im wondering what the results of this are here
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,519
Location
Great Lakes
I went to an atlas chiropractor for over a year. Since he was mostly only adjusting the atlas I believe it made my hyperjoint mobility worse by stretching out the ligaments in that area.

The theory is that if you adjust the atlas everything below that will align however the other vertebrae are larger with correspondingly larger muscles holding them in place so I believe they actually have more strength in misalignment than the smaller atlas.

These type of chiropractors also make extremely good sales people. Mine had me convinced that only his type of chiropractic could help me.

I got relief when I finally worked up the courage to try someone else. I found a hands on chiro that checked every single vertabrae on every visit and adjusted them as needed.

Anyway, this is my experience. Other long term patients may tell you a different story.
 
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Booble

Senior Member
Messages
1,465
I would very much like to have this looked at for me as I'm fairly certain this is an issue but I'm too scared to do so.
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
I went to an atlas chiropractor for over a year. Since he was mostly only adjusting the atlas I believe it made my hyperjoint mobility worse by stretching out the ligaments in that area.

The theory is that if you adjust the atlas everything below that will align however the other vertebrae are larger with correspondingly larger muscles holding them in place so I believe they actually have more strength in misalignment than the smaller atlas.

These type of chiropractors also make extremely good sales people. Mine had me convinced that only his type of chiropractic could help me.

I got relief when I finally worked up the courage to try someone else. I found a hands on chiro that checked every single vertabrae on every visit and adjusted them as needed.

Anyway, this is my experience. Other long term patients may tell you a different story.

You actually saw relief in your symptoms when you had another chiro adjust you normally? What improved?
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
I'm not sure if this is the same treatment, but @Wayne posted this in another thread (I think I added the comments in square brackets as a running index):
Of all the things I would sometimes like to shout from the rooftops, AtlasPROfilax would be toward the very top of my list. I think that just about anybody with just about any kind of health problems would do well to consider whether their atlas might be contributing to their problem.

I looked for years (decades) for a solution for myself (after a serious whiplash at age 15). I mostly went to different chiropractors using all kinds of different techniques. Nothing they did ever came close to the one-time atlas repositioning I received called AtlasPROfilax ($250). I would encourage everybody to research this to see if it might feel right for them to follow up on.

[recovery] One woman on the ProHealth board recovered completely from fibromyalgia. She not only had so much pain, but was also on heavy duty medications for anxiety and depression. All this went away after the pressure was released from her cranial nerves. So many other testimonies out there as well; many that I've heard first hand.

[safer?: ]I myself feel that the Atlas Profilax (AP) "repositioning" is much safer (and far more effective) than most chiropractic methods I've had experience with. I also realize that a lot of people are so closed-minded about any kind of "alternative" therapy, that they will be critical of it without ever taking the time to learn much about it.

[negatives:] Regarding people who have had "bad" experiences with AP: My take on this is that it is usually because their cranial nerves and/or various vertebrae have had so much pressure on them for such a long period of time, that an "integration process" is necessary before a new equilibrium is reached. That was the case for me, and it took me several days to achieve this new equilibrium. I know of one other person over at ProHealth (Crickett) who had a difficult time for several weeks, but I believe she eventually came out better for it.

[redo:] Another thing to be aware of is that about 5-10% will need an additional correction after the initial repositioning. For those who do end up needing this, I can see where complications could arise. A significant shift has occurred in the body, and it is trying to integrate it. But if the atlas has slipped back out, then the body may be left in limbo. Fortunately, of the 5-10% that do need a followup correction, this is almost always the last time it will need to be done. BTW, there is never any additional fees for any followup work beyond the intial $250 cost for the AP.

I recently had my atlas re-checked, and found it that it is still in place after these past 2 1/2 years. I once heard the atlas described as being like a boulder. Once it's moved, it's generally very hard to move it again. In my case, a serious whiplash moved it a great deal, and all the chiropractic therapy I had done over the years never came close to "repositioning" it. Only the AP worked. Unfortunately, the chiropractic profession doesn't know how to do this, so you end up going back to them again and again and generally only end up getting temporary relief.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,324
Yes. It did nothing for me. The good news is that it only required two appointments, after that there is no more money to be lost. The first session consisted of building up expectations for the treatment procedure, for example relaying stories of other patients who had supposedly recovered from all kind of bizarre conditions. This was followed up by a physical exam in which the therapist pointed out multiple "issues", including one leg that was longer than the other, posture being off, etc.

Then came the therapy itself, which consisted of the therapist pushing hardly with a vibrating massage device in order to re-settle the atlas. This was moderately painful, but thankfully the pain quickly subsided once the treatment was finished. After this, the physical exam was repeated, and magically, I no longer had different length legs or posture issues, or so I was told.

After the treatment, I felt a bit weird for around the next 24 hours or so (this was supposedly attributed to some kind of healing process). After that, I no longer felt any different from baseline. The therapist was very nice and caring, but yeah, that was about it regarding the positives.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,331
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Yes. It did nothing for me.

Hi @JES -- Even though I got significant benefit from AtlasPROfilax, I still continue to look for different therapies that might help. My own philosophy is that once a person has their upper cervical area impacted by some kind of injury, it probably never heals or aligns itself again 100%, and ongoing treatment of some sort is going to be necessary.

I recently started seeing a chiropractor who told me things about my neck no other practitioner had ever said to me. He said he could feel where the injury had occurred, and how my atlas was pushed backward, and tilted at an angle. He proceeded to do a deep massage in the area, which produced a significant relaxation in my body, and actually reduced the severity of my tinnitus for a couple of days.

AtlasPROfilax practitioners don't claim their technique is a cure all. In fact, they routinely recommend that people get some kind of ongoing treatment afterwards, such as massage, acupuncture, etc. There are so many different ways that a misaligned or injured neck can be treated, and I think it would be a mistake to believe that one particular therapy is going to work 100% for somebody, or that it's going to help everybody.

For me, persistence is the key. I keep looking for different things that might help, both from professional health care practitioners, and from my own efforts at home. I discovered some thoracic extension exercises last year that has made a huge difference for me. I'm also seeing a talented and unique physical therapist who does great things for my neck and body as well.
 

Jyoti

Senior Member
Messages
3,398
@Aerose91 --I had a few months of Atlas Orthogonal treatments about a year and a half ago. As you probably know, there is a fair amount of time devoted to diagnostics like very specific X-rays and clinical observations of things like leg length. It is formulaic, as @JES intimates.

I discussed ME with the chiropractor, as well as CCI/AAI and he seemed confident that AO could have a beneficial effect on the latter, at very least. Since I was convinced that my ME was connected to CCI/AAI, it seemed worth a try.

I think @JES was referring to Atlas Orthogonal and not Atlas Profilax, but I am not entirely sure. They are somewhat different. My treatments were 100% painless with AO. The adjustments are done with sound waves and no physical contact with the neck at all.

After my initial treatment I was a convert. I have not felt that good for more than a decade, possibly ever in memory. I felt as if my head was floating on top of my spine. I could see clearly, colors popped, my body moved with ease in the world, I could think with such clarity it literally stopped me in my tracks. The overall sense of well-being was blissful.

Sadly, it all faded after about 8 hours. I continued to get adjustments at the urging of the chiropractor, who assured me that just sticking with it would help train my muscles to hold the atlas in place. I wanted that feeling back more than anything, so was sucked into a rather expensive course of treatment with ever-diminishing returns. By the time I had my last adjustment, it didn't even make a dent in my usual sick state.

That having been said, I would add that the initial experience was revelatory. I wish I had stopped earlier, once it became fairly obvious that the effects were not increasing, rather decreasing. But ... as a diagnostic it has been very helpful to me. After having such a dramatic shift, albeit short-lived, I knew for sure that something in my neck was creating a great deal of my suffering. Which pushed me to follow that thread.

In addition, several physicians, including a neurologist and a neurosurgeon took my suspicion of cervical pathology a LOT more seriously when I related my initial experience. I don't want to be discouraging. I am not sorry I did it, but of course we all have to figure out where to invest because none of us have enough money or energy to pursue all the possible panaceas out there.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,324
@Jyoti Yeah I was referring to Atlas Profilax, I wasn't aware there was yet another method invented for attempting to treat the same thing, but ehm, interesting...

I don't think it's that rare experiencing these kind of short, temporary recoveries where your mind suddenly feels fully clear. It has happened to me several times. I don't think it's necessarily placebo, but it also doesn't mean that the improvement was due to a corrected atlas. What I'm trying to say is it could be something else about that therapy that promoted an improvement, there are a long list of possibilities.

I recently discovered I sometimes feel better after a relatively long car ride. I have no idea why, could be due to activation of the parasympathic nervous system, perhaps. I also experienced a day of recovery after a brain MRI scan, 90% of symptoms gone. Same with moving in and out of ketosis, sleep deprivation and when starting certain drugs or supplements. The problem is that these temporary recoveries rarely give an insight into how to achieve improvement long-term.
 

Jyoti

Senior Member
Messages
3,398
Excellent points, @JES. There are all sorts of threads that seem golden but also random and finding the common ones is not easy. I have found that there is a pattern for me. Just as AO was stunningly helpful the first time, I get ongoing and rather impressive help from cervical traction. And...I think I can trace the very first hints of illness to a small and seemingly insignificant neck injury. So for me, this response felt meaningful, part of my understanding the mechanism --or just the area of my body--which seems to be the doorkeeper to my answers.

But as you say--there are other strange moments of relief and clarity that don't fit a pattern and/or are not replicable. Like MRIs! You don't want to be dependent on an every other day MRI to stay well! I had a nearly complete recovery for a month after breaking my arm. Another non-starter when it comes to reproducible treatments.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,331
Location
Ashland, Oregon
The adjustments are done with sound waves and no physical contact with the neck at all.

After my initial treatment I was a convert. I have not felt that good for more than a decade, possibly ever in memory. I felt as if my head was floating on top of my spine. I could see clearly, colors popped, my body moved with ease in the world, I could think with such clarity it literally stopped me in my tracks. The overall sense of well-being was blissful.

Wow @Jyoti, quite a testimonial. Thanks for sharing.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,519
Location
Great Lakes
You actually saw relief in your symptoms when you had another chiro adjust you normally? What improved?

No, my ME/CFS did not improve but my severe pain issues did. Occasionally now when I have an adjustment from my current chiropractor, I will feel a little energy afterward for a couple of hours but that's it. I don't think chiropractic is a cure for ME/CFS necessarily--not unless a person has CCI or Chari issues and then I'm hopeful but not certain that chiropractic would help but certainly less traumatic than surgery. (Hope I used the correct acronym for that condition.)
 
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Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
No, my ME/CFS did not improve but my severe pain issues did. Occasionally now when I have an adjustment from my current chiropractor, I will feel a little energy afterward for a couple of hours but that's it. I don't think chiropractic is a cure for ME/CFS necessarily--not unless a person has CCI or Chari issues and then I'm hopeful but not certain that chiropractic would help but certainly less traumatic than surgery. (Hope I used the correct acronym for that condition.)

I'm starting to believe the same thing. How does one diagnose cranial cervical instability? I had the upriggt MRIs and all that and it showed my atlas was out of whack as well as reduced CSF flow to my brain but 5 weeks of adjustments hasn't improved anything
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 6
Messages
1,499
Location
Alexandria, VA USA
Atlas Orthogonal style chirorpactic has an interesting history. Upper cervical manipulation was first popularized by BJ Palmer in the 1900s as Hole-in-One aka Toggle technique who was the son of the magnetic healer and fish seller who started chiropractic. His father took manipulation from european physician bonesetters. He thought he could detect misaligned joints, manipulate them back into place and it would release blockages of nerve energy. AO was developed in the 1940s by a chiropractor named Grostic who added more complicated xray line drawing to upper cervical and replaced the drop toggle with an adjustable mallet that could be positioned to do single taps in different directions.

There are numerous problems with upper cervical chiropractic. They include:

  • It is based on erroneous 1940s biomechanics which does not accurately determine position from the two dimensional xrays. Problems include not accounting for xray distortion and misinterpretation of images.
  • The leg checks it uses are not reliable.
  • The forces from any manipulation do not impact spinal ligaments so there is no meaningful positional change.
Despite these problems, some patients get relief from cervicogenic headaches because the manipulations fire mechanoreceptors in spinal ligaments which breaks reflex arcs and releases endorphins.

The goal for the majority of chiropractors is to make the unreliable tests become negative. That means that you have to keep going back for return visits and it isn't effective for rehabilitation. Also, if the chiropractor does rotary neck manipulation you can get a stroke and die.

There is no reason to put yourself at risk for a stroke unnecessarily. Given that physical therapists also use manipulation but are more evidence based, I always recommend people with musculoskeletal problems see an OCS trained PT instead of a chiropractor. OCS PTs have to complete 4000 hours of supervised rehabiltation treatment while chiropractors do not.
 
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Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Atlas Orthogonal style chirorpactic has an interesting history. Upper cervical manipulation was first popularized by BJ Palmer in the 1900s as Hole-in-One aka Toggle technique who was the son of the magnetic healer and fish seller who started chiropractic. His father took manipulation from european physician bonesetters. He thought he could detect misaligned joints, manipulate them back into place and it would release blockages of nerve energy. AO was developed in the 1940s by a chiropractor named Grostic who added xray line drawing to upper cervical and replaced the drop toggle with an adjustable mallet that could be positioned to do single taps in different directions.

There are numerous problems with upper cervical chiropractic. They include:

  • It is based on erroneous 1940s biomechanics which does not accurately determine position from the two dimensional xrays. Problems include not accounting for xray distortion and misinterpretation of images.
  • The leg checks it uses are not reliable.
  • The forces from any manipulation do not impact spinal ligaments so there is no meaningful positional change.
Despite these problems, some patients get relief from cervicogenic headaches because the manipulations fire mechanoreceptors in spinal ligaments which breaks reflex arcs and releases endorphins.

The goal for the majority of chiropractors is to make the unreliable tests become negative. That means that you have to keep going back for return visits and it isn't effective for rehabilitation. Also, if the chiropractor does rotary neck manipulation you can get a stroke an die.

There is no reason to put yourself at risk for a stroke unnecessarily. Given that physical therapists also use manipulation but are more evidence based, I always recommend people with musculoskeletal problems see an OCS trained PT instead of a chiropractor. OCS PTs have to complete 4000 hours of supervised rehabiltation treatment while chiropractors do not.
Atlas orthogonal isn't neck manipulation. Its a very, very light tap on the atlas bone to adjust it. Its not at all like typical chiropractic