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Are vaccines the cause of ME/CFS?

peggy-sue

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I had a lot of vaccinations as a child - the normal ones that were available at the time
(no measles mumps or rubella jabs then - what we did was do the rounds of visiting all the children who had these illnesses and making sure we all caught them, to ensure immunisation for the future. I nearly died of measles.)

and several horrid ones for travelling abroad - typhoid, cholera etc.

I always had a very, very violent reaction to vaccines - bedridden and sick for several days afterwards, or in the case of my BCG just a massive, weeping pus-filled crater which lasted for about a year and put an end to my swimming. I wasn't allowed to get it wet.

But I was under the impression that my violent reaction to vaccines meant that I have a very strong and robust immune system. That's what I was told.

It might be the case that the vaccine is not "live" - but it's still full of alien proteins (which some might call toxins. I'm just wary of using the word "toxin" because it gets misused so often in "complementary health stuff") which activate the immune system.
 

Ecoclimber

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I had a lot of vaccinations as a child - the normal ones that were available at the time
(no measles mumps or rubella jabs then - what we did was do the rounds of visiting all the children who had these illnesses and making sure we all caught them, to ensure immunisation for the future. I nearly died of measles.)

and several horrid ones for travelling abroad - typhoid, cholera etc.

I always had a very, very violent reaction to vaccines - bedridden and sick for several days afterwards, or in the case of my BCG just a massive, weeping pus-filled crater which lasted for about a year and put an end to my swimming. I wasn't allowed to get it wet.

But I was under the impression that my violent reaction to vaccines meant that I have a very strong and robust immune system. That's what I was told.

It might be the case that the vaccine is not "live" - but it's still full of alien proteins (which some might call toxins. I'm just wary of using the word "toxin" because it gets misused so often in "complementary health stuff") which activate the immune system.
Unfortunately, some people have a severe reaction to vaccines and long term health ramifications after receiving a vaccine.

No, I am not an anti-vaxxer but some people have a deleterious effect to vaccinations because of compromised immune system or possible genetics susceptible to certain ingredients in the vaccine adjuvant.

Mounting evidence of a link between GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix flu shot and a spike in narcolepsy cases among children in Europe is putting one of the vaccine’s key ingredients, AS03, under intense scrutiny.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50742731/ns/health-cold_and_flu/

So it is important to weigh the benefits of a vaccine with a compromised immune system, age and the seriousness of exposure to severe pathogens such as severe viral strains of influenza or to exposure to deadly pathogens when travelling abroad.

Eco
 

Hip

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Mounting evidence of a link between GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix flu shot and a spike in narcolepsy cases among children in Europe is putting one of the vaccine’s key ingredients, AS03, under intense scrutiny.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50742731/ns/health-cold_and_flu/
That is very interesting. I always think that the adjuvants in the vaccine will be the ingredients most likely to be involved in an adverse reaction. Adjuvants are compounds that ramp up the response of the immune system, so that the immune system properly takes on the fight against the killed or attenuated micro-organisms of the vaccine, and thus remembers that micro-organism. Aluminum salts are a commonly used adjuvants. AS03 appears to be a new super-powered adjuvant.
 

Seewell

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For myself, i went to live in another country - about a year after that, i had the odd day where i was feeling a
little tired,which was unusual for me.I had always been strong fit and healthy,But i never thought anything
of it at the time.Then 7 years later i got m.e c/f/s.. I have a strong feeling that i either picked up some sort of
virus after i moved to the new country.Or it was a virus that was in me all along that woke up.

All i know is from my experience,and seeing the people around me.I would not have another vaccine
shot unless it was proven to be safe.
We all have to make are own call i guess.
Im sorry if i upsett anyone my mentioning babys,but to read about this happening makes me angry & sad.
 

Seewell

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If you have poor methylation, a vaccine can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Or it can be just another load on the system until something else is the last straw.

The cause, though, is actually poor methylation.
Dear caledonia and "Helen" ,i have just managed to get round to looking into your thoughts i.e
"methylation" very interesting indeed ,i found the detox and methylation section on the forum.Thanks you:thumbsup:
 

Ecoclimber

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There is another option for those in a quandary over influenza vaccination, you can have a prescription of Tamiflu or Relenza available just in case. The prescription drugs requires use within 2-3 days of first sign of flu symptoms.

Eco
 

Seewell

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Well thanks for that Eco.

Theres also of course natural/herbal antivirals like Olive leaf extract,Echinacea,Shitake & reishi mushrooms,Astragalus.
Eat raw garlic -YUM, ect,(Controversial i know but MMS works for colds/flu..I know myself i can be sensitive to some herbal remedies.So you would have to try and see)
 

golden

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i will never be having a vaccination ever again.

i think vaccines are a factor in M.E. whether a pre-cursor of toxins injected or harming gut function etc.

its funny because its something i am pestered about each year - by the NHS

there arent any scientific studies on effects of vaccine to people with M.E. and so i can not make an informed choice.
 

golden

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i was also going to say that vaccine damage in babies was being called munchaussens syndrome too!
 

SilverbladeTE

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Personally I think vaccines will turn out to be the worst self inflicted catastrophy we've ever done to ourselves, above and beyond GLobal Warming and Weapons of Mass Destruction, because we maybe inimically altering *ourselves*.

1) we don't know how many disease contaminated vaccines have spread to us, because
-in times past they simply didn't know and couldn't detect or remove such from vaccines
-from what I've read most old vaccine stocks were "destroyed in the search for HIV", so we can't go back and test old stocks for possible contaminants, my, isnt that convenient

2) we are injecting our YOUNG with foreign DNA/Protein etc
hellloooooooooooooooooooooooo! that's insanely dangerous
we really don't know jack shit on long term effects of such
only a lunatic epxeriments on their own young oh and let's not forget the ETHICAL questions on such which have went right out the window because hey "saving lives is more important!"....what myopic assholes :(

3) as we have found, getting rid of one "bad" bug isn't usually any dman good because a new one comes along to fill its niche and is usually nastier because it hasn't adapted to us as well
some are exceptions, as there was no natural "reservoir" of Smallpox, but that doens't apply to most disease.
Vaccines are one of the few treatments for viral illness, I am aware of potential benefits...but reward doesn't out weight risks or morals or ethics.

4) Adjunctivants, yes, wonderful, lets inject our offspring with things that highly aggrivate their immune system ARGH!!!!
Kids are *NOT* adults, they have very different reacitosn/weaknesses ot things thna adults.
andeven in adults, they cna provoke severe even lethal reactions, and more we learn, more we find this kind of thinghas been "ignored"

5) Pharma Corps make and sell these...who are about the most evil, lying FILTH this planet has ever seen, do I have to bring up the vast numbers who've been maimed and died due to their lies and lust for profit?
They are trying to make folk take vaccines for every damn thing they cna think of, 'cause it's dirt cheap profit for them, regardless of actual risk vs reward (we don't live in 3rd world natiosn so why give kids some of these shots hm?)

6) because the pharma corps got our governments to cover the vaccine insurance, woo hoo, yes our governments have massive vested interests to hush any risks up to avoid scandals and compensation claims!

7) Forcing kids ot take vaccines or not be allowed to go to school is state coercion for the profit of the pharma corps, you are pumping kids full of dangerous materials, to make pharma corps rich and then make it in practical terms, almost "illegal" to be unvaccinated
Ethics...morals...hello?!

8) Many of us live in grossly polluted environments, last thing we need is more crap to interact with that

9) The incredible inhuman arrogance of it all is evil
What folk do not accept/tell you is that for "herd immunity" to work,some folk, and kids, who would *never get the disease in the first place MUST DIE!*
yes, die, it's inevitable, you cannot expect there to be no risk, you are causing severe stimulation of the immune system neve rmind other risks (see the complete clusterf*** of polio testing in India recently)
even if things are 100% A-OK you'd still expect maybe 1 in a million at least to die form adverse effects, but there's nearing 7000 million of us alive.
but that's PER vaccine shot. AND if they arebeing honest and therisks increase dramatically for some vaccines to 1:10,000 or worse (hey they've lied out their asses on the safety so what's the real numbers?
and the statistical risks cannot be computed because we not understand synergistic risks or the true risk to the patient because of all the lies.

i do not give aCRAP if Jenner and the W.H.O. stopped Smallpox, versus the incredible hubris of forcing vaccinations on people.
FIRST DO NO HARM
that went right out the window, didn't it?!

IMHO, pharma crops should be forcibly broken up, their execs/those behind the cover ups tried and punished for mass murder, and any governemnt scum who helped conceal the truth/took bribes etc
then, all vaccinations should be banned, except for those thoroughly informed and with no pressure, and in high risk
untilsuch times as we've got fresh, reliable evidence of the reality behind vaccines.

seriosuly folk, anything else some bastard tried to forcibly mass medicate people, you'd all be screaming blue murder against it.
Yes I am aware of the benefits, but the risks/bullshit vastly out weigh those.

what shoudl occr is adults offered vaccines, that have been rigorously tested
they should be free, patients should be closely monitored for one month after the shots.
long term follow ups should occur noting autoimmune, toxicology and other problems
the potential dangers and complexities are vast, we've had ocmpletely slapdash cheap ass system...convenient for some..

an here's a thought:
more research recently, supports the findings that male sterility in the last 50 years has been increasing at about 1% per year...think about it. Now, while such maybe due to oestregen like chemicals in water etc....it coudl also be linked to vaccines...or plastics (phthalates etc)...or the ysnergistic combination of all the greedy stupid shit we've done
we simply don't know
if this continues the Human Race will be come *extinct*
bit by bit we are adding many woes...why do you think they are so desperate for ME/CFS, GWS and others to "go away"?

Science and Medicine needs to become complete seperate from ALL external interference and monetarization, except safety and ethics
We Humans are *on the way out* because of our bulls****.
meh, sorry for the downer. But like, only Homo Sapiens is *stupid* enough to store insanely dangerous horrors like Uranium Hexaflouride, in tanks in the open air...and they trust pharma corps?! buhahahhaha!
 

Valentijn

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there arent any scientific studies on effects of vaccine to people with M.E. and so i can not make an informed choice.
Actually there are a couple small studies from 2012, at least looking at short term immune response after flu vaccination. Both found statistically significant abnormalities.

Prinsen et al. Humoral and cellular immune responses after influenza vaccination in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. BMC Immunology 2012, 13:71. :
Vaccination induced a significant increase in cellular proliferation in CFS patients, but not in healthy controls.
From pre- to post-vaccination, CFS patients showed a significant increase in cellular proliferation in two out of three virus-strains and a trend in the same direction for the third virus-strain, whereas healthy controls did not show a significant change in proliferation from day 1 to day 8. In absolute counts, CFS patients showed post-vaccination more proliferating T cells for all three virus-strains, compared to controls.
In conclusion, putative aberrations in immune responses in CFS patients were not evident for immunity towards influenza. We show that CFS patients are able to mount a protective antibody response and a sufficient cellular immune response upon a single shot of influenza vaccine, which is comparable with healthy controls. Therefore, standard seasonal influenza vaccination is thus justified and, when indicated, should be recommended for patients suffering from CFS.


Brenu EW, et al. The Effects of Influenza Vaccination on Immune Function in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis. International Journal of Clinical Medicine, 2012, 3, 544-551. :
However, NK activity was significantly decreased at baseline and at 28 days, while at 14 days it significantly increased in the CFS/ME patients compared to the healthy controls.

Th1 pro-inflammatory cytokines in-creased considerably in the CFS/ME patients at 28 days compared to the non-fatigued controls.

Only one Th2 cytokine, IL-4, increased in the CFS/ME participants.

FOXP3 expressing Tregs only increased significantly at day 28 post vaccination in the CFS/ME patients compared to the healthy controls.

Self-rated wellbeing was lower for patients at day 28 while at baseline and day 14 no differences were observed.

In this pilot study immunization with influenza vaccine is accompanied by a degree of immune dysregulation in CFS/ME patients compared with controls. While vaccination may protect CFS/ME patients against influenza, it has the ability to increase cytotoxic activity and pro-inflammatory reactions post vaccination.
Some disparities between the two studies can be explained by different time frames. The first study is looking at pre-vaccination (day 0), day 7, and day 21. The second is looking at pre-vaccination (day 0), day 14, and day 28. The second study found significant Treg (regulatory T-cell) abnormalities on day 28 whereas the first study said Treg is normal but only tested at day 0.

Both studies basically conclude that our bodies do react in a manner that suggests we acquire some level of immunity from vaccination. But the second concedes that there is additionally a rather odd immune reaction to the vaccination which corresponds with patients feeling worse than controls.

So vaccines seem to "work" for us based on short-term observations, so long as we're not too bothered about our immune system getting buggered in novel ways for an unknown length of time.
 

golden

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Thanks for sharing this study.

I am not convinced by it. And it seems to classify CFS as severe fatigue which can be successfully treated with CBT even though the underlying mechanisms are unknown.


Also, with having MCS and feeling a difficulty in removing toxins, for me it would be a terrible idea injecting them.

The guy who invented the flu vaccination even says they dont work and doesnt bother having them!

I would increase my D3 if i felt i needed additional protection personally.
 

Valentijn

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I am not convinced by it. And it seems to classify CFS as severe fatigue which can be successfully treated with CBT even though the underlying mechanisms are unknown.
Yes, the Dutch study involved a pretty prominent BPS moron for "expert" advice. Frankly, I doubt the immunologists and other real doctors who were involved in the study had any idea how poorly supported his general theories about ME/CFS are. The Dutch study also tested fewer immune components and some were not tested at multiple points.

The Australian study is by far the better one, I think, and draws a more realistic conclusion: even if immune reaction specifically involving immune system alteration from the vaccine is normal, it also has negative consequences that need to be taken into account and examined further. They're right in framing it as a risk versus benefit calculation - they're essentially conceding the possibility that the more general immune reaction might be too extreme to justify the possibility of diminished chance of catching the flu.

From the conclusion of the Aussie (Brenu) study:
. . . it is possible that in some cases vaccination against influenza may be protective as it has the ability to increase cytotoxic activity and pro-inflammatory reactions post vaccination, while adverse effects may ensue in others. These vaccines should be administered with caution in patients with complex disorders where immune function is severely compromised. The advantage of influenza vaccine however, may likely offset the risks associated with CFS/ME.
I think that's a pretty extraordinary result, for relatively main stream doctors. Discouraging the use vaccines in any manner (including simply NOT encouraging them) is almost guaranteed to get a knee-jerk reaction of condemnation from the main-stream community. So the Australian group actually went out on a limb a bit by saying the advantages only "may" offset the risks.
 

Seewell

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My fire on this subject is a bit low now,but when i had my finger stuck in a socket about this:p ,i found this
which i thought was interesting:Link: http://www.whale.to/a/bruno.html Dr Richard L Bruno

"When the Salk and then Sabin vaccines brought the yearly number of british polio cases below 25 in the
early 1960s,the number of CFS/ME patients took off "
 

penny

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I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or I should start a new thread (mod feel free to move, others feel free to tell me to start my own thread ; ), but this thread has reminded me that I'm going to be in the position of deciding what vaccinations my expected little one will get.

What do you all think are the vaccines that seem to have the biggest risk vs. reward profile - especially with regards to potential genetic/immune abnormalities that we may have? So what do folks feel are the least useful or most dangerous?

The flu vaccine seems a big one to me, partly because of personal bias (never had a flu shot and that seems to have no bearing on whether I get the flu or not), stories of folks getting sick after the flu shot (and there's a number of them up thread), and the lack of big reward for the risk (yeah the flu can kill, but it doesn't usually right?). Plus the vaccine is different each year so who knows what 'new' side effects might be caused by a new vaccine -- like the narcolepsy that Ecoclimber mentions above.

And I feel very distrustful of the HPV vaccine, though I don't have hard data. I remember some discussions on the board about ME or ME-like symptoms in a noticeable number of kids after receiving this, I'm not sure but it seems like the death rate (yeah, I'm going super morbid here) of related cancers is possibly relatively low*, and I have a gut level distrust of this particular vaccine because there seems to be an especially strong monetary interest in making this something we all get (when there are commercials for something I get suspicious).

* Does anyone know of any tools that might estimate potential risk? I'm thinking of some kind of calculator that, if say you knew that there are 4,000 cervical cancer deaths a year in the US (according to the cdc), you could get some estimation of what that meant as far as risk? This site http://www.deathriskrankings.com/ is somewhat interesting but I'm not sure it quite does the job, but maybe I need to do some of my own math... [on edit: that site allows you to get the annual death rate and then it's just a basic calculation - so there is the same rate of death from cervical cancer as homicide in the U.S.]
 

Valentijn

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I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or I should start a new thread (mod feel free to move, others feel free to tell me to start my own thread ; ), but this thread has reminded me that I'm going to be in the position of deciding what vaccinations my expected little one will get.
I think one thing that might help is to look at methylation and immune system aspects thought to be associated with bad reactions. If everything is completely fine and normal and healthy, there might not be any cause to worry - since lots of people do get tons of vaccinations without any ill effects.

But if there are abnormalities, then prioritizing might be more sensible. Also most vaccines should be available without preservatives or allergens upon request, which might make all the difference.
 

Ocean

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I had bad reactions to some vaccines too. I feel I got too many vaccines. When my dog was elderly and had some health problems his vet told me not to give his regular vaccines because it could be too much for his system. If that's so with a dog, why not a human being as well?
 

Ocean

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I think one thing that might help is to look at methylation and immune system aspects thought to be associated with bad reactions. If everything is completely fine and normal and healthy, there might not be any cause to worry - since lots of people do get tons of vaccinations without any ill effects.

But if there are abnormalities, then prioritizing might be more sensible. Also most vaccines should be available without preservatives or allergens upon request, which might make all the difference.
By should be available, do you mean they are available upon request or just that they ought to be?
 

Valentijn

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By should be available, do you mean they are available upon request or just that they ought to be?
I know they're available for at least some vaccines (due to people having allergies and such), and might be available for most vaccines. Not sure really.