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Anyone heard of functional neurological disorder?

Messages
10
I had a bizarre day today.

Went to neurology outpatient appointment after ENT had referred me suspecting presyncope.

Difficult already as I had a bad experience with the department when admitted meningitis to the extent I made a complaint.

But instead of addressing the dizzy balance issue ans whether I had POTs/Syncope he ended up obsessing about my historic depression and then giving me some weird umbrella diagnosis of functional neurological disorder.

Which sounds suspiciously like "its psychological /psychosocial" to me and this site, if representative appears to endorse cbt and the infamous GET.neurosymptoms.org/physio-ex...

Have honestly had enough. Is UK neurology really so far in the dark ages?? . Im worried this will go on my med record now. Wish I had never attended. What a massive step backwards!
 

Moof

Senior Member
Messages
778
Location
UK
You're right to think it's a BPS diagnosis. You can ask for a second opinion, and if you need some moral support, you also have the right to be accompanied at the appointment if you choose. I believe that POTS UK has a list of clinicians who're interested in syncope and POTS, who'll almost certainly be much more informed and supportive than the ignorant git you got landed with first time round – might your GP refer you, if there's one in your area?
 

Research 1st

Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.
Messages
768
Have honestly had enough. Is UK neurology really so far in the dark ages?? . Im worried this will go on my med record now. Wish I had never attended. What a massive step backwards!

A subgroup of POTS can be a' functional disorder' but only in mental health patients who are bedridden for months at a time with conditions like borderline anorexia who, post gentle exercise over time (via CBT/GET) have no organic dysautonomia and recover. NB: These patients commonly have no repeat TILT table test (once walking around) to save face. It would be negative, so they only met POTS diagnostic criteria when bedridden.

Recovery via GET is beneficial for them but for others with ME CFS who develop secondary POTS a disaster as then they are midiagnosed with deconditioning POTS - this is what they think you have if as someone with ME CFS you have a positive TILT test for POTS.

Why does this matter also to organic POTS patients (e g. Autoimmune or Hyper POTS or Neuropathic POTS)? Well, the deconditioning POTS subset patients then pose as recovered genuine POTS patients online which makes the public presume POTS is a mental issue, case in point a glamorous young woman I won't name but I think she likes chocolate. She is now convinced POTS is caused by a bad diet but has forgotten the part she was bedridden by this bad diet and thus massively nutritionally deficient and had probably recovered naturally anyway from PVFS as her illness was very short.

UK charities use deconditioning POTS patients for their own reasons, believing in an all inclusive approach, no matter how damaging this is to patients with pure POTS, a POTS that exists even if you can walk around or even exercise - what POTS should be.

So with non organic POTS subset, their symptoms were functional, a normal physiological reaction to laying flat for months and developing a functional dysautonomia in which your ANS becomes sluggish.

The UK psych lobby know this (who deny ME) and exploit this subset as being relevant to anyone with ME CFS who has POTS because they presume you lay flat in bed all day, this is why in London (National Hospital for Neurology Queens Square) they give this misdiagnosis to patients with organic ME because they presume if you weren't deconditioned, you wouldn't have POTS because you don't have it anyway.

The worst offender for this in my experience is Professor Mathias or his 'team' who openly publish research claiming POTS patients is partly neurotic through neuro psych processes aligned to panic disorder.

The National reject the NICE guidelines on CFS/ME and won't even discuss ME. The doctors level of arrogance and defiance there is disturbing. Try going there, they will silence you in conversation. This means your ME symptoms never get discussed because to them, they are joining in with your delusional belief you have something called ME.

So to conclude, telling you, or writing to your GP as someone with ME CFS you have a functional neurological disorder is a polite way to tell them you're mad because your behaviour is affecting your ANS, thus simulating POTS. Hence they see testing is pointless and hence CBT/GET is given to overcome your alleged fear of activity.

If it makes you feel better, they nearly killed me from neglect, diagnosed me with fake subset POTS then locked me up and no I'm not joking, and I also don't have depression but now I have PTSD as they caused it.

Top Tip. Don't return to any NHS doctor if you have organic ME CFS who tells you your symptoms are functional if you know you aren't neurotic and don't have anxiety fear avoidance issues.

If not, from bitter experience over decades of NHS abuse in the UK can do what the Wessely school has taught them to do - deny organic ME at all times and push for unexplained CFS. Once it's unexplained it's medically unexplained and thus your disability becomes functional.

Knowing this, stay away from them, they're like parasites who infect the mind of previously pleasant doctors who once you have a misdiagnosis of a 'functional neurological dusorder' will now view you as defective, far more than 'just having CFS/ME.

Functional means unexplained or non organic and thus the responsibility to recover is on you, not them - the very definition of a functional somatic syndrome and the 'justified' prescription of CBT/GET and antidepressants and a block on further outpatient neurological testing .
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
A subgroup of POTS can be a' functional disorder' but only in mental health patients who are bedridden for months at a time with conditions like borderline anorexia who, post gentle exercise over time (via CBT/GET) have no organic dysautonomia and recover. NB: These patients commonly have no repeat TILT table test (once walking around) to save face. It would be negative, so they only met POTS diagnostic criteria when bedridden.

Recovery via GET is beneficial for them but for others with ME CFS who develop secondary POTS a disaster as then they are midiagnosed with deconditioning POTS - this is what they think you have if as someone with ME CFS you have a positive TILT test for POTS.

Why does this matter also to organic POTS patients (e g. Autoimmune or Hyper POTS or Neuropathic POTS)? Well, the deconditioning POTS subset patients then pose as recovered genuine POTS patients online which makes the public presume POTS is a mental issue, case in point a glamorous young woman I won't name but I think she likes chocolate. She is now convinced POTS is caused by a bad diet but has forgotten the part she was bedridden by this bad diet and thus massively nutritionally deficient and had probably recovered naturally anyway from PVFS as her illness was very short.

UK charities use deconditioning POTS patients for their own reasons, believing in an all inclusive approach, no matter how damaging this is to patients with pure POTS, a POTS that exists even if you can walk around or even exercise - what POTS should be.

So with non organic POTS subset, their symptoms were functional, a normal physiological reaction to laying flat for months and developing a functional dysautonomia in which your ANS becomes sluggish.

The UK psych lobby know this (who deny ME) and exploit this subset as being relevant to anyone with ME CFS who has POTS because they presume you lay flat in bed all day, this is why in London (National Hospital for Neurology Queens Square) they give this misdiagnosis to patients with organic ME because they presume if you weren't deconditioned, you wouldn't have POTS because you don't have it anyway.

The worst offender for this in my experience is Professor Mathias or his 'team' who openly publish research claiming POTS patients is partly neurotic through neuro psych processes aligned to panic disorder.

The National reject the NICE guidelines on CFS/ME and won't even discuss ME. The doctors level of arrogance and defiance there is disturbing. Try going there, they will silence you in conversation. This means your ME symptoms never get discussed because to them, they are joining in with your delusional belief you have something called ME.

So to conclude, telling you, or writing to your GP as someone with ME CFS you have a functional neurological disorder is a polite way to tell them you're mad because your behaviour is affecting your ANS, thus simulating POTS. Hence they see testing is pointless and hence CBT/GET is given to overcome your alleged fear of activity.

If it makes you feel better, they nearly killed me from neglect, diagnosed me with fake subset POTS then locked me up and no I'm not joking, and I also don't have depression but now I have PTSD as they caused it.

Top Tip. Don't return to any NHS doctor if you have organic ME CFS who tells you your symptoms are functional if you know you aren't neurotic and don't have anxiety fear avoidance issues.

If not, from bitter experience over decades of NHS abuse in the UK can do what the Wessely school has taught them to do - deny organic ME at all times and push for unexplained CFS. Once it's unexplained it's medically unexplained and thus your disability becomes functional.

Knowing this, stay away from them, they're like parasites who infect the mind of previously pleasant doctors who once you have a misdiagnosis of a 'functional neurological dusorder' will now view you as defective, far more than 'just having CFS/ME.

Functional means unexplained or non organic and thus the responsibility to recover is on you, not them - the very definition of a functional somatic syndrome and the 'justified' prescription of CBT/GET and antidepressants and a block on further outpatient neurological testing .

Every time I read of a millennial who wants to bring NHS to the USA, I think of cases like this. Of course, their response to describing cases like rhis would be “LOL”.

@Research 1st
Your fortitude in standing up to this BS is amazing. Don’t give up!
 
Last edited:

Apple

Senior Member
Messages
217
Location
UK
case in point a glamorous young woman I won't name but I think she likes chocolate. She is now convinced POTS is caused by a bad diet but has forgotten the part she was bedridden by this bad diet and thus massively nutritionally deficient and had probably recovered naturally anyway from PVFS as her illness was very short.

If you are talking about DE, then you should know that she has EDS and isn't 100% recovered.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
Yes, "functional" is "hidden code" in the notes for a head case /pyschological cause, at least in the states. I'ts maddening how all these obstacles like schmucks are placed in our way. it's like half the stress of chronic illness is having to fight the medical system.

don't worry about it being in your record. Good docs are aware that other docs can do stuff like that. sometimes can make them even more motiviated to find the real cause, if they even care what another doc says.

i remember a zillion years ago when I first got sick a GI doc thought i was imagining my symptoms. I went to him for elevated liver enzymes! I asked him how can I imagine elevated iiver enzymes- and he put that whole dialogue into the records! Strange guy. He was even the head of the dept at a prestigous university hospital.

im not sure what the best way is to cut losses and move in. It all takes a toll even if we try to laugh and sigh and brush it all off.
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
690
Location
Scotland
"Functional" disorders have always been part of neurology. They were the basis of Freudian psychoanalysis, too complicated to get into just now but neurology has always been too close to the psychiatrists.

It is not specific to ME though more and more people with Me are being rediagnosed with it (At last recongnition as neurological!) There is the "pseudocoma" where the eyes move in the wrong direction and pseudoepilepsy which is diagnosed because patients do not land on hot cookers. It has reached the looking glass point where one proponent could confidently state that brain scans had shown the part of the brain responsible for making patient susceptible to a functional neurological syndrome which was itself diagnosed by nothing being apparent in a brain scan.

They state with confidence that something is functional because there is no physical damage, it is how the brain works - software not hardware - and many patients are happy with the diagnosis. But I have wracked my brains to think of anything in the body that doesn't work where there is no physical damage. That damage may not be gross but it must be there.

It is not an attack on ME. Clinics and treatment programmes have been set up because people with neurological problems that cannot be categorised, for instance ME because neurologists "don't believe in it" are costing too much and the biopsychosocial group have used the "stunning" results from the PACE trial to claim they can cure FND cheaply.

They spend a lot of time trying to make hysteria acceptable to patients as a diagnosis and FND is just the latest name. They have more strategies for lying to the patients than they have for curing them.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
True - I guess the brain would be on the front lines of an incorrect but pervasive dualism mind vs body. So many errors committed in name of dualism. One that comes to mind is the "glove anesthesia" travesty, but am too spent to type it all in.
 

rainbowbluebells

Senior Member
Messages
248
A subgroup of POTS can be a' functional disorder' but only in mental health patients who are bedridden for months at a time with conditions like borderline anorexia who, post gentle exercise over time (via CBT/GET) have no organic dysautonomia and recover. NB: These patients commonly have no repeat TILT table test (once walking around) to save face. It would be negative, so they only met POTS diagnostic criteria when bedridden.

Recovery via GET is beneficial for them but for others with ME CFS who develop secondary POTS a disaster as then they are midiagnosed with deconditioning POTS - this is what they think you have if as someone with ME CFS you have a positive TILT test for POTS.

Why does this matter also to organic POTS patients (e g. Autoimmune or Hyper POTS or Neuropathic POTS)? Well, the deconditioning POTS subset patients then pose as recovered genuine POTS patients online which makes the public presume POTS is a mental issue, case in point a glamorous young woman I won't name but I think she likes chocolate. She is now convinced POTS is caused by a bad diet but has forgotten the part she was bedridden by this bad diet and thus massively nutritionally deficient and had probably recovered naturally anyway from PVFS as her illness was very short.

UK charities use deconditioning POTS patients for their own reasons, believing in an all inclusive approach, no matter how damaging this is to patients with pure POTS, a POTS that exists even if you can walk around or even exercise - what POTS should be.

So with non organic POTS subset, their symptoms were functional, a normal physiological reaction to laying flat for months and developing a functional dysautonomia in which your ANS becomes sluggish.

The UK psych lobby know this (who deny ME) and exploit this subset as being relevant to anyone with ME CFS who has POTS because they presume you lay flat in bed all day, this is why in London (National Hospital for Neurology Queens Square) they give this misdiagnosis to patients with organic ME because they presume if you weren't deconditioned, you wouldn't have POTS because you don't have it anyway.

The worst offender for this in my experience is Professor Mathias or his 'team' who openly publish research claiming POTS patients is partly neurotic through neuro psych processes aligned to panic disorder.

The National reject the NICE guidelines on CFS/ME and won't even discuss ME. The doctors level of arrogance and defiance there is disturbing. Try going there, they will silence you in conversation. This means your ME symptoms never get discussed because to them, they are joining in with your delusional belief you have something called ME.

So to conclude, telling you, or writing to your GP as someone with ME CFS you have a functional neurological disorder is a polite way to tell them you're mad because your behaviour is affecting your ANS, thus simulating POTS. Hence they see testing is pointless and hence CBT/GET is given to overcome your alleged fear of activity.

If it makes you feel better, they nearly killed me from neglect, diagnosed me with fake subset POTS then locked me up and no I'm not joking, and I also don't have depression but now I have PTSD as they caused it.

Top Tip. Don't return to any NHS doctor if you have organic ME CFS who tells you your symptoms are functional if you know you aren't neurotic and don't have anxiety fear avoidance issues.

If not, from bitter experience over decades of NHS abuse in the UK can do what the Wessely school has taught them to do - deny organic ME at all times and push for unexplained CFS. Once it's unexplained it's medically unexplained and thus your disability becomes functional.

Knowing this, stay away from them, they're like parasites who infect the mind of previously pleasant doctors who once you have a misdiagnosis of a 'functional neurological dusorder' will now view you as defective, far more than 'just having CFS/ME.

Functional means unexplained or non organic and thus the responsibility to recover is on you, not them - the very definition of a functional somatic syndrome and the 'justified' prescription of CBT/GET and antidepressants and a block on further outpatient neurological testing .

Hi, I just read your post and am hoping you can help me. I was hoping to get further tests on autonomic functioning and have a thorough check up with Prof Mathias privately, as well as get a NHS referral to queens square National Hospital for Neurology (autonomic unit) and possibly other units too. I have severe M.E and of course a lot of severe autonomic symptoms as well as neurological symptoms. Please could I have more information on what they said / did to you - did they refuse to do other tests? I am so worried now. I don’t know whether to cancel my appt with Dr Mathias. This was my last hope.
 
Messages
10
Yes, "functional" is "hidden code" in the notes for a head case /pyschological cause, at least in the states. I'ts maddening how all these obstacles like schmucks are placed in our way. it's like half the stress of chronic illness is having to fight the medical system.

don't worry about it being in your record. Good docs are aware that other docs can do stuff like that. sometimes can make them even more motiviated to find the real cause, if they even care what another doc says.

i remember a zillion years ago when I first got sick a GI doc thought i was imagining my symptoms. I went to him for elevated liver enzymes! I asked him how can I imagine elevated iiver enzymes- and he put that whole dialogue into the records! Strange guy. He was even the head of the dept at a prestigous university hospital.

im not sure what the best way is to cut losses and move in. It all takes a toll even if we try to laugh and sigh and brush it all off.

Thanks for telling me not to worry about the medical record. He had talked me into giving him a symptom list I'd taken as a reminder but twisted what I wrote and said in a letter diagnosing fnd. It has affected my gp behavior sadly. I have struggled to brush it off it still makes me angry months later.

My primary diagnosis is ME. I saw the ENT for dizziness after the viral meningitis. He suspected OI and did the neuro referral I so regret attending. What a smug xxxx he was. He enjoyed stitching me up. I'd thought all that stuff about pace and blaming it on psychology was historical. If only I had realised. I was called recently and offered a follow up but declined. He was smart could run rings round me. I keep mentally writing a letter back.

I have moderate ME. Inactive. Part but not all of day lying down on sofa. And not for all that long at that point. I could still walk the dog round the block at that stage back in November. But I relapsed massively after Christmas. Now I have lost that as my ME progressed.

I do have anxiety but that was well under control and 12 years ago had a depressive episode when my marriage broke down. I've been recovered and happily remarried 7 years. I don't remotely accept my illness is psychological im causation though. There is the smoking gun this time of hospitalisation with probable viral-meningitis . And there is a medical record note of pvfs 20 years ago after probable glandular fever.

I don't officially have pots. I did a tilt and it didn't show. But it was after a load of gut wrenching neuro ontological tests tests for the dizziness which exhausted me. It seems my dysautonomia is part time and also wants to make me look even more like one of Freuds mad women. It kicked in again about 2 weeks after. Who knows maybe the pots like symptoms I am recording are due to the deconditioning variant you mention. But even if that's so I can't help that since the organic ME dysfunction of energy production/delivery prevents my activity and forces me to lie down rest etc in the first place.

The neuro otological did find an issue, the ttt didn't but the cardio guy who is explicitly anti mysoginistoc doctors labelling women with Freuds hysteria diagnosed pots like symptoms for now based on an abnormal heart rhythm and my wrist hrm data. He suggested an Endocrine consult, 24 hour urimg test and the possibility of trying the drugs anyway. The standing up thing is my biggest problem now. I'm about to get a pt wheelchair so I can stop being housebound as I can't even walk dog round block now. If everyone thinks I have deconditioning already there's not much point in worrying about a bit more and hopefully I'll get some better quality of life.

None of my results actually helps me of course. I just give up. Fighting for answers is too hard.
There just aren't any.
 
Messages
42
Ugh just got this 'diagnosis' pending MRI and nerve conduction testing. Seemed like a good doctor so I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't understand why they bother saying these things are 'treatable' when they can't to my knowledge point to any significant evidence that anything actually helps. I was under the impression that they at least had some mental exercises that could help, instead I hear that it's mainly CBT (which is only 13% effective!?). In slight disbelief to find out I'm back to square one, wondering whether it's a liability having ME/CFS written anywhere in my file as it seems to cause tunnel vision in dr's! So sick of these convoluted ways to say that they're not going to do anything for you.

At least the right tests are being done for now, but if it's supposedly a good thing that I have this as opposed to a firm diagnosis I'd like to see an evidence based plan for treatment!!
 
Messages
10
Sorry to hear that Muso94.
Trust your instinct.
I spoke to 2 people who are happy in their FND diagnosis and my symptoms weren't consistent.
For me, I don't buy it. There is no evidence to support it, except Freuds theorising about hysterical women when science was far less knowledgeable. Oh Please.
Viral DNA damage or an abnormal immune response both are more logical to me (and have research evidence supporting them) unless there is profound consistent psychological disturbance. And even then I question which came first. In both my cases the virus was a "smoking gun" . Since when did depression cause abnormally shaped blood cells?
My neuro deliberately manipulated the facts in his write up to suit his beliefs. If yours is good (mine wouldn't even run the mri) and you think fnd is wrong for you, share the biomedical research, and how much there is now and see if they will look at the new science and revisit an old broken hypothesis.
 
Messages
42
Sorry to hear Starry, it is a frustrating process. It seems the problem is so often this tunnel vision and blind spots when it comes to this condition, hopefully in coming years this bias will start to be recognised and training can be put in place against it! I am lucky that the tests to rule MS etc out.

Although I think doctors' hearts are often in the right place, but it seems a lot of universities etc just don't prioritise creative thinking enough in their med students since the information overload has set in in medicine. In Aus you're expected to be the top .05% to be guaranteed a place in the best programs, and this can easily be achieved by those with a photographic memory (to say nothing of their problem solving skills which are so crucial). At least they have other requirements like an interview to assess their potential, but it would be good to see systems skew a bit more towards creativity and empathy. Hard to maintain this throughout their careers when the realities of the industry set in as well so what can you do. Doctors are so overworked everywhere it seems, hard to take us seriously when there's no signs of illness they can measure. But having your capacity for living a full life killed slowly is still devastating, especially when you're young.