Antivirals vs. Antibiotics

[SDD1244]

There is something that has been puzzling me for quite some time. When I was officially diagnosed with CFS, I was prescribed antibiotic therapy by my specialist. I had herxing symptoms, which obviously indicated to me that I did have a bacterial infection. On this treatment, I was slowly making progress. I am confused as to why CFS specialists would not try antibiotic therapy before antivirals ? If two-thirds of CFS patients have a bacterial infection, then wouldn't it harm them to take immunosuppressants and put them at additional risk ?

 

[Cort]

That is an interesting question. Certainly antibiotics are making something of a comeback with Dr. De Meirleir's focus on using them to treat the bacterial infections in the gut. I've heard of patients doing very well on antibiotics and patients on long course of antibiotics who had relatively minimal improvement. Still Dr. Cheney wouldn't even consider them I don't think and I've never had a doctor suggest them. Nor have many even looked for bacterial infections. It does seem kind of odd.

Dr Klimas talked about the difficulty of treating the immune system with all its complexities in an earlier issue of Phoenix Rising. It's apparently a very tricky thing - which is why it's great that the Whittemore Peterson Institute is taking such a deep look at it.

http://aboutmecfs.org/News/PRKlimasCFS08.aspx

 

[SDD1244]

Hi Cort,

Thanks for the link... I'll check it out. I know that I am very thankful for the Whittemore Peterson Institute and definitely looking forward to their research.

The homeopathic formulas that I've been taking (I switched from long term antibiotic therapy to these formulas) address both viral and bacterial conditions. So I will continue to let everyone know the progress that I make. I am thrilled that I have herxing (detox) symptoms from these formulas and have made some progress so far and continue to do so !

 

[Jody]

SDD,

I'd be very interested in hearing more about the homeopathic treatment you've been getting on the viral and the bacterial front.

I respect antibiotics for what they can do in a short-term situation. They make me extremely nervous in any ongoing setting due to the effect they have on the good bacteria etc.

Love to know more about some alternatives.

 

[SDD1244]

Hi Jody,

This is the treatment plan that I'm currently on:

http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?t=130

I didn't mention it earlier, but around 2000 or 2001, before I had my CFS diagnosis, I was on the same treatment protocol and it put me into remission ! I felt great for about 1 1/2 years after taking the formulas. The funny thing was (not so funny now), I was a noncompliant patient back then and didn't finish the entire protocol. At the time, I didn't understand why the formulas were making me feel worse and it was very difficult to work with the herxing symptoms that I was having.

 

[Jody]

SDD,

LOL

Oh, yeah, you told me this before, didn't you. My bad.

Blame it on the cfs brain, not everything sticks the first time ... or the second time ...

 

[Jody]

SDD,

The concept of detoxing or herxing or retracing are very foreign to conventional medicine. I had never heard of any of this before encountering my naturopath. Not accurate, I'd heard a bit about retracing from a chiropractor years before but I really hadn't understood it then.

Wonder how many times people have unknowingly stopped a particular type of treatment because it seemed to be making them worse, when really the thing was working.

I know I've done it in the past. It's often hard for me to tell whether something is working for just this reason. But the very idea of getting to the source of the problem and have it gone for good, makes me willing to learn the ropes of herxing, die-off, etc.

 

[SDD1244]

Jody,

I can't tell you how many times I've had to say that to people. LOL !!!

And how many of us here have CFS confusion ? The confusion is so much better now for me, but when I first started treatment (which makes my symptoms worse), I had done all sorts of silly things. My favorite was putting the car keys in the refrigerator !

 

[Jody]

Actually, I put the car keys in the refrigerator on purpose.

A little trick I picked up from my mom years ago.

I'd go to her house with my kids, and visit for an afternoon, just about every week. Sometimes I'd have stopped at the grocery store, or she'd have something she wanted me to take home as a treat. Rather than risk forgetting the food in the fridge, she suggested I put my keys in there with the food.

I didn't have cfs back then, but I DID have 5 little kids so ... any helps were appreciated. And, keys in the fridge worked.

 

[Cloud]

Anti-biotics

I have always had a very good response to Doxcycline, but there is no bacterial infection there (that we have been able to find). I am negative for Lyme, Mycoplasma, CPN, etc, yet respond to the drug like there has to be something. I have heard this story many times with PWC's responding like this to Doxy without any diagnosable bacterial infection . It's has to be one of 2 things......it's either a bacteria that's being missed, or it is the anti-inflammatory effects that Doxy seems to have on our particular brand of spun out immune systems. Either way, a positive response to Doxy (and certain other anti-biotics), is quite diagnostic and warrants in depth tests to rule out bacterial infections that may be treatable....such as Lyme.
Yes, taking Immune suppressants is a very bad idea for people like us with all the re-activated bugs. But not all anti-virals are immune suppressants.

I will look for that link on Doxy's anti-inflammatory effects. I think it's somewhere connected with the Lyme community.

Sorry for being so long winded.....trying to just get plugged in guys. I'll slow it down...I promise, lol.

 

[Jody]

Hi Ross,

Welcome to the forums.

We don't have any rules against long posts. If we did, everybody here would be in trouble.

You can write as much as your heart desires. People are going to read it and be interested.

Alot of people apologizing for talking lately. Could it be we're so used to so many people around us being disinterested and put off that we feel we're taking up too much air and too much space and too much of people's time -- because of bad experiences with people who don't understand what we deal with as chronics?

Be THAT as it may, we want to hear whatever you want to say. Enjoy it.

Don't bother slowing anything down.

 

[Cloud]

Hi Jodi

Thanks for the welcome. Kinda joking about being long winded, but kinda not as well, lol.

Greetings to everyone.........I look forward to getting to know everyone better.

hugss,

Ross

 

[SDD1244]

Hi Ross,

Just out of curiousity.... which mycoplasma test did you have done ? The reason why I ask is because Prof. Garth Nicolson, an expert on mycoplasma and other infections, says that to get the testing that we need... you need to go to a specialty lab that can do the PCR testing, and even then you have to be at the right time when the microorganism is being shed into the blood to get a positive test result !

My physician just ordered vitamin D tests on me... going with Dr. Trevor Marshall's theory that vitamin D dysregulation occurs because of intracellular bacteria. I had a low vitamin D result, but a higher vitamin D 1,25 hydroxy level. In my case, I was told that based on population studies, 99. 89% of the population would be expected to have a lower number.

For more information on mycoplasma testing (Dr. Nicolson's website) and his research on CFS, check out:
http://www.immed.org/illness/fatigue_illness_research.html

 

[Cloud]

Hello SDD,

I have read that Micoplasma is extremely hard to detect in bloodwork. Gee, how do you know when it is "being shed into the blood"? Get a flare up?
My last 2 Mycoplasma labs done by Dr.Peterson were PCR and performed by the best labs out there I'm sure, but I couldn't tell you which strain they looked for. He did the Mycoplasma and CPN twice at my insistence because of my dramatic response to Doxy (from a previous MD). I also had the works done on Lyme testing thru IgenX labs........Nothing on all fronts.

So your VD results were not indicative of an intracellular bacteria infection?

Thanks for the link.....I'll check it out

 

[SDD1244]

Hi Ross,

Prof. Nicolson had mentioned how difficult it was to test for mycoplasma. According to a chart in one of his speeches, it says that over 40% of CFS patients test positive for Mycoplasma fermentans. Almost 60% test positive for Mycoplasma pneumoniae. Others are:

Mycoplasma genitalium - approximately 10%
Mycoplasma hominis - approximately 30%
Mycoplasma penetrans - approximately 12%

And then of course if you've ever had a tick bite, you are also at risk for mycoplasma (all species), Borrelia burgdorferi, Ehrlichia, Bartonella and Babesia.

Here is a link to that speech. In his speech, he also discusses how these infections (high frequencies) are found in Gulf War Syndrome, autism and lyme patients:

http://www.viddler.com/explore/tamiduncan/videos/15/

 

[SDD1244]

So your VD results were not indicative of an intracellular bacteria infection?

My vitamin D ratio was 2.23 and my results indicated that I had Th1 inflammation (due to intracellular bacteria).

 

[Cloud]

Hiya SDD,


If your referring to VD ratio results being able to make that diagnosis, that is something I knew nothing about. But I think you must be referring to Immune testing results for diagnosing the Intracellular Bacterial infection....If so, may I ask which findings suggested Th1 Infammation due to "Intracellular Bacteria" (ie..Elevated Interleukins (which ones?), Elastace, TNF, RNaseL)?

Thanks for the link....I will check it out

 

[SDD1244]

Hi Ross,

The vitamin D dysregulation is Dr. Trevor Marshall's theory (at least to my understanding) What physicians are finding in chronically ill patients is that they tend to have a higher (but within normal range usually) vitamin D 1,25 hydroxy level, but a low vitamin D result. It has to do with the way vitamin D converts. Vitamin D is not a true vitamin.... it is a seco-steriod hormone. I think that is why sometimes I feel better while taking vitamin D (or used to anyway) and other times... worse. It is my opinion (from Dr. Marshall's research and my own personal experiences) that if you are chronically ill and taking vitamin D, it could hurt you in the long run. Of course that is just my opinion and I'm sure most people would disagree with me on this.

I also agree that a low vitamin D level is the RESULT of an illness and not the cause. I even remember a woman posting on the health boards who had mono and a low vitamin D level. She was confused because she lived in Florida and was always sunbathing. Months later, she posted and said that she was recovering from mono and her vitamin D result was back to normal.

Here are some links on this:

http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum2/2572.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=oS...NX2Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

Vitamin D Deficiency Study Raises New Questions About Disease And Supplements

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080125223302.htm

 

[Cloud]

VitD

Thanks for the info SDD, I know that Dr Peterson did some kind of tests on my VitD, but I have no idea of the specifics. I think it was all just part of creating the diagnostic picture. I did think it very interesting though if the test would help to indicate a intracellular bacterial infection, especially since those are so difficult to diagnose. But I'm with you on that the VitD deficiency is likely result, not cause.

Thanks also for the links to Garth Nicolsons work. I had only heard of his work with Mycobacteria, but didn't get into it enough to learn the history of all he had been through and uncovered about the bug.

 

[smithgerry]

Antiviral drugs are one class of antimicrobials, a larger group which also includes antibiotic, antifungal and antiparasitic drugs. They are relatively harmless to the host, and therefore can be used to treat infections. They should be distinguished from viricides, which are not medication but destroy virus particles outside the body.
An antibiotic is a drug that kills or slows the growth of bacteria. Antibiotics are one class of "antimicrobials", a larger group which also includes anti-viral, anti-fungal, and anti-parasitic drugs. They are relatively harmless to the host, and therefore can be used to treat infection. The term originally described only those formulations derived from living organisms, but is now applied also to synthetic antimicrobials, such as the sulfonamides.