Antioxidant = vacant mind?

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Hi,

I’m getting on well with Freddd’s protocol, however, I really don’t get on well with the recommended vitamin C, or actually any other antioxidant (e.g. pycnolgenol, quercetin).

When I take an antioxidant, I get a sort of vacant mind; I’m not able to mentally focus very well or react to environmental changes properly – everything is very slow mentally - this lasts the whole day when taken in the morning.

I'm desperate to get on better with these as I believe that they might relieve my extremely tight muscles - pycnogenol and a grape seed extract (Meganatural BP) are supposed to really help with relaxing muscles. Indeed, I did have some muscle release with pyconogenol, but couldn't tolerate the mental side.

Has anyone else had this affect from antioxidants? If so, did it ever get better? Have you found a way to make them work?

Thanks.
 

Learner1

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The one thing all the docs at the recent Clinician's Summit agreed on is that patients with ME/CFS have significant oxidative stress.

My labs show this, do yours? And do they show a need for all the nutrients in freddd's protocol?

We are all individuals with individual genetics and environmental factors ehich csn change over time. Taking somrine else's canned protocol and applying it you is a recipe for weird symptoms.

I've been working with doctors on this for several years and my needs have changed dramatically (as evidenced by lab tests) and, at times, I've experienced all kinds of weird and significant symptoms that I've reported to my doctor and he's made tweaks that have made me feel better.

As for antioxidants, upping one by itself is a recipe for disaster. Msny studies have shown that giving a single antioxidant produced bad results. Dr. Packer, who ran the world's foremost antioxidant lab at UC Berkeley for many years, found antioxidants work asca network, recycling each other. The neteork should be balanced. You might enjoy his book:

The Antioxidant Miracle: Put Lipoic Acid, Pycnogenol, and Vitamins E and C to Work for You https://www.amazon.com/dp/0471353116/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_2k5mBbZ38G6W1
 
I don't know about pcynogenol or quercetin, but I did have issues tolerating vitamin C when I used to be able to take gobs of it just fine.

Nowadays I take a small amount of camu camu which is a berry with some vitamin C content. I had tried 6 other types of vitamin C both artificial and natural and this is all I can tolerate.

As far as tight muscles, some magnesium could be very helpful.
 

Wishful

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Antioxidants seem to make my ME symptoms worse, including the mental lethargy. Peroxynitrite scavengers, such as cinnamon, turmeric, and resveratol, are even worse. Since these are both antioxidants and p-scavengers, it's hard to know which effect is more important. No, I haven't found any way to avoid the effect, other than avoiding the products.
 

Learner1

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Er... Could it be you're mobilizing toxins like mycotoxins, arsenic and other heavy metals, organophosphates, etc.? As an example, arsenic produces significant fatigue and brain fog as it stops ATP production.

In which case, avoidance is probably not the best strategy. Developing a comprehensive, balanced protocol allows toxins to more gracefully move our of the body.
 
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Dr. Packer, who ran the world's foremost antioxidant lab at UC Berkeley for many years, found antioxidants work asca network, recycling each other. The neteork should be balanced. You might enjoy his book:

The Antioxidant Miracle: Put Lipoic Acid, Pycnogenol, and Vitamins E and C to Work for You https://www.amazon.com/dp/0471353116/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_2k5mBbZ38G6W1
This looks like a great book - I have all of those antioxidants in the cupboard!!! Thanks for the link.
 
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Er... Could it be you're mobilizing toxins like mycotoxins, arsenic and other heavy metals, organophosphates, etc.? As an example, arsenic produces significant fatigue and brain fog as it stops ATP production.

In which case, avoidance is probably not the best strategy. Developing a comprehensive, balanced protocol allows toxins to more gracefully move our of the body.
It could well be that I've built up a lot of toxins; I know that my body's detox processes had completely collapsed for a period of 2 years - during this time, I couldn't even detox my own histamine - it was really horrible, so build up of environmental toxins is highly likely.

Thank you - I will persevere! . (with the help of that book!)