Anatomy of an enterovirus / Coxsackie B virus outbreak — overt illnesses and subclinical symptoms

Hip

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Can Gemcitabin be used for EBV in the case of an abortive infection (Lerner theory)
Gemcitabine seems to have a very potent effect against non-cytolytic enterovirus, and since such non-cytolytic infections are very similar to abortive infections, my guess is that gemcitabine would work for abortive infections too.

Gemcitabine appears to work by stimulating the same genes that type 1 interferons would normally stimulate. Since interferon induces the immune system inside the cell, which fights chronic viral infections living within cells, gemcitabine may have the same effect.
 

Hip

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I got word from Dr Chia that gemcitabine did not work in two ME/CFS patients who developed cancer and were treated with gemcitabine. And also, there have been cancer patients without ME/CFS who developed ME/CFS as a result of gemcitabine treatment. Apparently though the gemcitabine side effects are in general surprisingly tolerable.
 

Wonkmonk

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Thanks for relaying this information. But it's interesting that Dr Chia has looked into this. It doesn't sound like it's a definitive conclusion.
 

BadBadBear

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@Hip - would the Se/NAG combo you recommend on your site possibly cause low grade fevers? I started it some days ago and have had a daily sweaty, hot, fever for most of the day (around 99.4 which is a fever for me).

My energy is decent and motivation is good. But damn I'm hot (lol, that's kind of funny).

I am currently also tapering off of my thyroid med under my docs supervision to see if that is causing it. I thought Se might drive hyperthyroid? Any other thoughts?

TY,
Michelle
 

Hip

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@Hip - would the Se/NAG combo you recommend on your site possibly cause low grade fevers? I started it some days ago and have had a daily sweaty, hot, fever for most of the day (around 99.4 which is a fever for me).
I can't say I have come across that one before. For the selenium protocol, there is a thread here. I found high dose selenium improves brain fog and fatigue. For me the main benefits of NAG are reducing anxiety.
 

Wonkmonk

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I got word from Dr Chia that gemcitabine did not work in two ME/CFS patients who developed cancer and were treated with gemcitabine.
Back to Gemcitabine for a second: Was there any evidence in these two patients that a viral infection was involved in their CFS?
 

Hip

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Back to Gemcitabine for a second: Was there any evidence in these two patients that a viral infection was involved in their CFS?
I unfortunately don't have any further info other than what I posted.
 

Wonkmonk

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I unfortunately don't have any further info other than what I posted.
And it probably wasn't combined with Ribavirin, as it was in the study that found a synergistic effect against enterovirus.

IMHO those two patients shouldn't be treated as proof that it has no benefit for other patients.
 

Omar88

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As usual Hip you have always do a great job !

I will do it in your way

1) patients 1 neurological problems
2) patients 2 stomach aches since 6 years , mouth ulcers and lack of fever since he got the infection
3) patients 3 joint pains , fatiuge and she is always dealing with sore throat
4) patients 4 she developed a sore throat after we kissed multiple times , fatiuge , depression issues
5) patients 5 who is the patients number 4 new bf , he developed heart issues after they started dating and doctors did put him in treatment for heart extra electricity , heart palpitations, high blood pressure
6) patients 6 chronic sever sinus , fatigue , depression
7) patients 7 she is a friend with a daily contact with me , we eat Together and drink too , she developed sore throats , gut issues , kidney pain , and after a cr scan it shown that she had cycts and a tumor like showing in her abdominal area , after 2 months every thing disappeared mostly like it was a miracle when they were going to do surgery for her
8) patients 8 she is a friend of patients 7 and after eating and sharing time with her after being sick she is now struggling with severe ibs and stomach issues , sore throat and getting treatment


I only gave an example for what I see around me , if you hip have the same thing , it transmit easier than any doctor think , it hits the gut and do change gut microbiota and cause inflammation there and a lot of toxins in the blood , it do supress the immune system so it can't detox those toxins from the blood which cause multiple different disease upon our blood antibodies power and genetics

This infection supress the immune system but still can't know which biomarkers is it hitting yet ! But I found high cytokines, CiC testing which indicates infolmatry response to something that is not yet found unfortunately ,,

The infection is 50% of the problem and how it affect our bodies depending on gut microbiota is the other 50% as I believe

Gene sequencing shown high levels of bacteria and fungal traces on the blood like what hiv patients have but we know it's not hiv or any known pathogen as the lab replayed
 

Hip

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@Omar88, if you want to get tested for coxsackievirus B1 to B6, I recently found an inexpensive lab in Greece that provides a highly sensitive antibody neutralization test for CVB for €68. See this post. This is much cheaper than ARUP Lab, who charge $440.
 

Omar88

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@Omar88, if you want to get tested for coxsackievirus B1 to B6, I recently found an inexpensive lab in Greece that provides a highly sensitive antibody neutralization test for CVB for €68. See this post. This is much cheaper than ARUP Lab, who charge $440.
I saw the page but there is no test lists on the website
Do you really think this virus in as entro virus ?
 

Hip

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I saw the page but there is no test lists on the website
I wrote to the Greek lab using ordinary mail, asking (in English) about their tests, and they informed me that they do offer a neutralization test for CVB for €68.

In 2016 I was tested by a similar neutralization test provided by a lab in the Netherlands (but they no longer offer this test), and had high titers (1:1024) to coxsackievirus B4, even 13 years after first catching my virus. I think there is a good chance that the virus I caught in 2003 is CVB4, especially since the virus I caught triggered illnesses in friends and family that coxsackievirus B is known to cause, like chronic viral myocarditis for example.
 
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Omar88

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I wrote to the Greek lab using ordinary mail, asking (in English) about their tests, and they informed me that they do offer a neutralization test for CVB for €68.

In 2016 I was tested by a similar neutralization test provided by a lab in the Netherlands (but they no longer offer this test), and had high titers (1:1024) to coxsackievirus B4, even 13 years after first catching my virus. I think there is a good chance that the virus I caught in 2003 is CVB4, especially since the virus I caught triggered illnesses in friends and family that coxsackievirus B is known to cause, like chronic viral myocarditis for example.
This kind of virus come with an acute period , most of the patients getting this doesn't show this phase of it ,,
 

Hip

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This kind of virus come with an acute period , most of the patients getting this doesn't show this phase of it
Yes that's right, coxsackievirus B will often cause an acute illness for a few days, such as gastrointestinal illness (vomiting and diarrhea), or a sore throat (herpangina sore throat), etc. Many of the people who caught my virus had these acute symptoms to begin with, and then the chronic symptoms would appear months or years later.
 
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Wonkmonk

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What I find most striking is that it is contagious whereas it is commonly believed that CFS (from other sources than this virus) is not contagious.

It seems to be even more contagious than, say, HSV-1. People are getting it within a year just by living in the same household.

It also seems like it only causes CFS in a limited number of cases while most cases have other very unpleasant and permanent symptoms, but not CFS.

Maybe those with CFS have another condition on top of the CVB infection that causes CFS or CVB is a trigger event that caused something else to create sustained CFS symptoms.

But fortunately (or sadly, depending on perspective), it is obviously rare enough to have flown below the radar of mainstream research so far. Only very few people like Dr Chia are studying it.
 

JES

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What I find most striking is that it is contagious whereas it is commonly believed that CFS (from other sources than this virus) is not contagious.
CFS itself is not contagious, I don't see where it's claimed in this thread. If it would be we would constantly have large epidemics, and there has been basically none reported since the 1980's. Enteroviruses are easily contagious of course, but as you say, we don't yet know whether enteroviruses alone are enough to trigger CFS. And once the enterovirus is no longer in the acute stage, my understanding from the research of Dr. Chia is that it primarily exists in a non-cytolytic (abortive) slowly replicating form, which is the form that according to Chia's hypothesis maintains CFS/ME. Such form of a virus seems to be resident only in certain long living cells, such as in heart or brain and is not much visible in the blood. So it seems unlikely to me that you could even transmit the virus after the acute stage of the infection.

Gene sequencing shown high levels of bacteria and fungal traces on the blood like what hiv patients have but we know it's not hiv or any known pathogen as the lab replayed
It's not a single pathogen. The perhaps best evidence of what viruses are found in CFS/ME patients comes from Dr. Chia's stomach biopsies and other detection methods that he uses. The viruses that Chia finds most frequently in his patients are CVB3 and CVB4, and somewhat less commonly CVB2, EV6, EV7 and EV9.
 

Omar88

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the problem is with the medical system

My main infection in 2011 is so infectious that I can see the first symptoms which hit me for one year on other patients when we have a close contact but 95% have mild acute phase and different long term issues if they have any !

When you are hit with a virus that is too strong with fever , lymph nodes , heavy night sweat , diarrhea, rashes , kidney pains , fatigue and sever body aches the doctor run the list he have of common viruses then send you home to tell you it will take time , then after 3 months of pain you hear that it might take little more , he says this while he is calling the next patients and telling you no help to do , after 6 months they diagnose you with cfs, or post viral infection without thinking of knowing what was the cause ,,

In my case and like hip and others here this infection is in high load that it does infect people around and I can just wait for some people 1-3 days after they share my drinks to get them , I went back to the doctor and told him but they don't care unfortunately
 

Wonkmonk

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CFS itself is not contagious, I don't see where it's claimed in this thread. If it would be we would constantly have large epidemics, and there has been basically none reported since the 1980's. Enteroviruses are easily contagious of course, but as you say, we don't yet know whether enteroviruses alone are enough to trigger CFS.
I was referring to Hip's reports that the type of enterovirus that might have triggered his CFS is contagious and infected several acquaintances and family members, but in most cases without triggering CFS-like illness.
 

Wonkmonk

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In my case and like hip and others here this infection is in high load that it does infect people around and I can just wait for some people 1-3 days after they share my drinks to get them
This is very interesting, because as I detailed earlier in this thread, I can very clearly trace the beginning of the infection that very likely triggered my CFS to sharing a drink with a friend. But she did not have any signs of CFS or the type of illness described herein and I also know of no case among my social environment who I might have infected with the virus. No one I know has any long-term issues as described here or as described by the CFS symptoms.

I think that the virus and the CFS are to separate things. The virus might be the trigger, but it might not be what is sustaining the CFS. In my case, I suspect it is HSV-1. Hip also reports high-ish HSV-1 titers, so that might play a role, too.

If I may ask, Omar, did you check your herpesvirus titers (HSV1, HSV-2, VZV, EBV, CMV and HHV6)?