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Actual Improvement in PEM with Probiotics - My N=1 Experience

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
species name was changed (and I understand it, this is not uncommon in biology)

that happens often and especially these days due to DNA studies show them where they had grouped things incorrectly....

Let me know how it ends up turning out.

I find this probiotic to be very intriguing.....I took a five day break.

I seem to be needing less sleep. I am more awake when I wake up . I am far less in a zombie coma.

Thats interesting! My digestion has been pretty good here lately...NICE.
 

katabasis

Senior Member
Messages
154
that happens often and especially these days due to DNA studies show them where they had grouped things incorrectly....



I find this probiotic to be very intriguing.....I took a five day break.

I seem to be needing less sleep. I am more awake when I wake up . I am far less in a zombie coma.

Thats interesting! My digestion has been pretty good here lately...NICE.

That's awesome! I'm glad you're having a positive effect from it.

Here's another thought-provoking data point: I recently had to take some penicillin for an ear infection. A few days after starting the penicillin, I had a couple episodes of rolling PEM, to an extent I haven't experienced since starting the probiotic. It's possible the stress of having to travel to a doctor provoked this. But on the other hand, Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium spp. are susceptible to penicillin, which makes me think the penicillin reversed the benefits I believe I get from this probiotic. It's been a few weeks since I finished the penicillin and the improvements seem to reappearing (thank the stars).
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
which makes me think the penicillin reversed the benefits I believe I get from this probiotic

could be....and of course thats why we often try not to take antibiotics...I had to take something a bit low key about three years ago and didn't have much gut reaction...so sometimes there aren't real obvious gut effects...(I forget what antibiotic).

It's possible the stress of having to travel to a doctor provoked this

Monday I get to visit the dentist again, so I will have more data points for possible PEM....(I think I need to keep at it..but intend to)
 

katabasis

Senior Member
Messages
154
@katabasis, @Rufous McKinney, they say they're made with dairy and soy. Do either of you know if those are foods you are sensitive to and if so, are you able to take these w/o reacting?

I'm sensitive to both so don't know if I would react. :(

I am sensitive to dairy protein, though in general I do not react to trace amounts. They say that the dairy and soy may be present in trace amounts because they may be used during the fermentation process - it is possible that the fermentation process breaks down the protein enough where it wouldn't be an issue, but I couldn't tell you for sure.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
If you're not in a crash, I mean)

funny: I'm crashing, post dental visit and excessive Anticipatory Anxiety and probably too many questions the dentist asked me! (about politics, this time)

Also does it seem to help with mood even if you are not taking it for that?

I stopped for five days, then took one on Saturday. I'm going to now resume about every other day and see whats happening.

Since I'm not really particularly anxious or depressed (until I get anxious or depressed about something)..I'm not noticing that as much as shifts in digestion, much improved digestion, and something with shifting cortisol, and maybe I am more awake in the morning and less wiped, which would be a nice improvement.

they say they're made with dairy and soy.

I "used to be" severely allergic to dairy but either I outgrew it, or it shifted to some other form like: well I often wonder if everything wrong with me now started because of that allergy to cows milk at age 1.

So no, I'm not particularly sensitive to soy or dairy as far as I know. I think my LDN is cut with some type of lactose.
 

katabasis

Senior Member
Messages
154
@katabasis, @Rufous McKinney, any updates? (If you're not in a crash, I mean).

Also does it seem to help with mood even if you are not taking it for that?

Thank you in advance. :)

Hi Judee, so far the probiotic still seems to be helping me. The most noticeable thing is reduction in PEM, where it takes more exertion to trigger it, and when I do get it, it seems to be less severe and less long-lasting. @Rufous McKinney mentions 'shifting cortisol' and I feel like that might be similar to my case. It feels like my physiological stress response isn't quite as screwed up as it has been.

It seems like a downside to this is that since my PEM isn't as immediate and severe, I have a harder timing knowing when I'm overexerting. There have been a few times where I've pushed my limits a bit (say, making a sandwich and then doing the laundry without taking a long break in between), and then later on that night I get some PEM and only then realize my limit had been surpassed. Still, any reduction in PEM per amount exerted is still an improvement in my book.

My mood has been a little better since I started the probiotic, but I can't say whether it's really directly due to the probiotic, or an indirect effect of the quality of life improvement it's giving me in other ways.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
The most noticeable thing is reduction in PEM, where it takes more exertion to trigger it, and when I do get it, it seems to be less severe and less long-lasting.

I now think I am experiencing a lessor PEM event today...I had dentist yesterday...alot of conversation and inputs and I was quite wiped out last night. I expected to be pretty crashed today, but its not very intense.

Nice. The experiment, continues...

( part of PEM in my case usually includes the gut running out of energy, and probably more leaking. Perhaps that part is experiencing a shift....)
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,491
Location
Great Lakes
@katabasis and @Rufous McKinney, another odd question... have you noticed any change in body temperature. Like if you tended to have low "normal" temps, have they increased any?

Edit: Oh and do you tend to get colder when you have a PEM crash?
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
@Rufous McKinney, another odd question... have you noticed any change in body temperature. Like if you tended to have low "normal" temps, have they increased any?

I'll have to notice more carefully...I had a 1.5 degree fever last week around 5pm/ slight PEM- I usually run a bit below normal...

Hot flashes: a bit more likely during PEM

Two days back on the probiotic, I am not able to sleep in. But maybe that is Ok...
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
do you tend to get colder when you have a PEM crash?

probably, I just seem to not very good at thermoregulation, whatever it is. I get hot easily. cold easily.

I put on a few more pounds so I am not as thin...I never wore the heavy sweater this winter and keep turning off the heater because it dries out my eyes.
 

katabasis

Senior Member
Messages
154
@katabasis and @Rufous McKinney, another odd question... have you noticed any change in body temperature. Like if you tended to have low "normal" temps, have they increased any?

Edit: Oh and do you tend to get colder when you have a PEM crash?

I can't say I've noticed a reliable change in body temperature from the probiotics. Usually my body temperature is the normal 98.6, though sometimes I get a low fever during a major PEM crash (not always though - maybe 1 in 4 times).

My temperature perception, on the other hand, is way out of whack. I frequently feel too cold or too hot, completely irrespective of my body temperature or the ambient temperature. Sometimes a slightly warm room feels stifling, but then I step into a hot shower and I'm totally comfortable. Other times I feel hot and cold at the same time, like you would if you might if you had the flu. Because of how counterintuitive and random these symptoms are, it's hard to say what effect, if any, the probiotic is having on them.
 
Last edited:

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,738
Location
Alberta
I frequently feel too cold or too hot, completely irrespective of my body temperature or the ambient temperature.

I occasionally feel like my temperature is elevated, but when I check, it's actually significantly below normal for me. I wonder whether our perception of body temperature is measuring the actual temperature in whatever cells, or whether it's measuring the temperature difference between those cells and some other cells.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
it's actually significantly below normal for me. I wonder whether our perception of body temperature is measuring the actual temperature in whatever cells

you should try out a hot flash and enjoy that.....your body is boiling over but no increase in actual body temperature happens
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
I experienced niacin flush,

somebody dropped by, passed out B vitamins and I proceeded to think I was having a coronary....no niacin for me, thank you.

I never had the hot flashes very badly, as the chinese herbs help alot with that.

its very oddly tied to lying down. what about lying down causes a wave of boiling over?
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
The HPA axis has long been a subject of interest to me as a ME/CFS sufferer. In particular, when I first read about the Cortene hypothesis, it made a lot of sense to me. At this point, the HPA axis seems like a core element of ME/CFS pathogenesis, though obviously not the only element, and of course I am only offering my opinion as a relative layperson in the medical field. Nonetheless the following may be of interest to some of you.

About two months ago, I stumbled upon this paper - “Bifidobacterium longum and Lactobacillus helveticus Synergistically Suppress Stress-related Visceral Hypersensitivity Through Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis Modulation"

It studies a novel combination of two commercially available probiotic strains in mice. The intended application in the paper is to treat IBS, and when sold to people, these strains are commonly marketed as a ‘mood probiotic’, but in each case the purported mechanism through which the probiotics exert a benefit is the HPA axis.

I found this particular finding from the paper to be the most intriguing: "the expression of the glucocorticoid receptor mRNA was consistently up-regulated in several brain areas after pretreatment with a combined probiotic".

If you need a refresher on the HPA axis, the hormones which constitute it function as part of a feedback loop. The hypothalamus produces CRF (also called CRH) which activates CRF receptors in the anterior pituitary. This causes the release of ACTH, which activates ACTH receptors in the adrenal cortex. Finally, this causes the release of cortisol, which activates glucocorticoid receptors, among others. Cortisol goes on to suppress the release of CRF and ACTH, keeping the levels of these hormones and their receptors in balance.

View attachment 48003

There are two subtypes of CRF receptors - CRFR1, which is expressed against minor ‘homeostatic threats’, and CRFR2, which is expressed against major ‘homeostatic threats’. After dealing with a major homeostatic threat, such as a severe illness, the CRFR2 is supposed to downregulate, but according to the Cortene hypothesis, in ME/CFS the CRFR2 is ‘stuck’ upregulated (normally, the 5-HT1A serotonin receptor governs CRFR2 downregulation, but it seems like it gets desensitized from chronic stress). And since CRFR2 is upregulated, and does not respond to the inhibitory effect of cortisol, the body overproduces cortisol, leading to downregulation of glucocorticoid receptors, and eventually a depletion of cortisol (indeed, many people with ME/CFS suffer from mild to moderate hypocortisolism or other cortisol-related abnormalities).

View attachment 48004

Back to the probiotic - if it does indeed increase the expression of glucocorticoid receptors, sensitizing the body to cortisol, presumably it would increase the negative feedback that cortisol has on CRF and ACTH release. And even if it did not fix the feedback loop entirely, there would probably be some benefit to restoring glucocorticoid receptors to their normal sensitivity.

After finding this paper, I decided to buy the probiotics and give them a shot. They are produced by Innovix Labs, and you can find more information about them on their website. As far as I can tell, probiotics are a pretty low-risk intervention - lactobacillus and bifidobacterium strains sensu lato are very well studied, and this particular combination of strains probably has the same risks as most other garden-variety probiotics (obviously people with known sensitivity to probiotics, due to conditions like SIBO or something, should exercise caution). In the past, other probiotics have given me some nasty side effects, primarily gastrointestinal, but this combination of strains did not seem to cause any, even initially.

It’s been around a month and a half since I started taking them, and I have seen a distinct improvement in my ME/CFS symptoms, more so than virtually every other intervention I have tried. On Dr. David Bell’s ME/CFS disability scale, I was at a 10 before I started taking the probiotics, and now I am sitting around a 20. This does not seem like a huge improvement, but there are a ton of different quality-of-life changes I’ve been able to make. I can now do minor chores, such as doing my laundry or cooking a small, simple meal without getting any PEM. I can now actually read for 30 minutes or so without crashing, and my tolerance of sight/sound has also gotten somewhat better. My mood has also been especially good, though it’s unclear whether that’s a direct consequence of the probiotics, or just happiness from my health improvements.

When I do overexert myself, the PEM is also not as severe and I seem to bounce back after only a couple of days. For instance, I had to make an emergency dental appointment after my molar cracked in half. Normally these kinds of doctors visits (especially something as stressful as a tooth extraction) would make me totally bedbound for a week or more, and I wouldn't truly get back to baseline for what felt like a month, but after this one I was pretty much back to baseline in 48 hours.

All that said, there are definitely other variables to consider. To begin with, I had severe IBS for years prior to getting ME/CFS. I’ve always thought that my CFS was inextricably linked to my gut, and so maybe probiotics are affecting my disease process in a way that wouldn’t necessarily have the same benefits for others. However, IBS-spectrum illness is common in ME/CFS, and it’s possible that gut flora imbalance could be a contributing factor even in the absence of serious GI symptoms.

I also have been receiving IVIG therapy for six months to treat autoimmune small fiber neuropathy. It usually takes months to years to see the full extent of improvement from IVIG, so it’s possible some of my health improvements may be partly due to ongoing IVIG therapy. However, my IVIG improvements to date have been mostly on my nerve pain and not my fatigue/PEM, and it would be a bit unusual for IVIG to lead to such rapid improvements, almost ‘all at once’, after many months of slow progress.

In any case, I am curious if other people have tried this particular blend of probiotics. I think they are definitely worth a shot, especially if you feel like gut flora issues have played a role in your ME/CFS. They are fairly inexpensive, and seem to be fairly low-risk as far as supplement-type interventions go.
It is great you have gained benefit from this and you may want to look up the vagus nerve it links our gut microbiome to the HPA axis.

I agree that the HPA axis is indeed involved and plays a bit part it this condition. I also believe that the microbiome can have a powerful affect on ME/CFS too.

Here are some resources that relate to your post contents I hope they are interesting to you.

Short video, little old but a good lead into the longer one below-
Mind-altering microbes: how the microbiome affects brain and behavior: Elaine Hsiao at TEDxCaltech - YouTube
TEDx Talks Feb 8, 2013 6.02min


Microbiome Talk with Dr. Sabine Hazan - YouTube
Drbeen Medical Lectures May 28, 2022 1.18.35h

Microbiome Talk with Dr. Sabine Hazan

The first woman ever accepted into the University of Florida as a Clinical Gastroenterology Fellow, Dr. Sabine Hazan is a pioneer in the medical field. Board certified in Gastroenterology, Hepatology, and Internal Medicine, Dr. Hazan has published articles in numerous prestigious medical journals, including the Journal of Duval County Medical Association and Gastroenterology, and won several awards, such as the Best Fellow Scientific Presentation and Dean’s Research Award awarded by University of Florida.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
you'd probably want to make a suspension of the capsule's content in sterile saline and then use a syringe (minus the needle obviously) to administer it.
I am not sure saline (salt water) would be right when transferring LIVE microbes but I have not looked this up. It seems wrong to me when trying to create colonies of living organisms. Maybe distilled water would be better?
ouch if you left that needle on by mistake! lol
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,356
ouch if you left that needle on by mistake! lol

thats funny!

I decided to not bother with an alternative introduction route and just swallow the pill.

I feel it has not caused any SIBO issues and in fact seems to have calmed down wind emanating from the small intestine.

I am trusting it for now.