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Yes vs No - respectful discussion

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I don’t think it's an either/or situation. There are things I like, things I don't about the IOM report.
The process means that our opinions will not be taken into account, as far as we are aware, so there's no official avenue for making nuanced submissions. This means that many of us feel that we either have to accept or reject the entire report and recommendations, based on whether we think the recommendations will be an improvement on the status quo, or a step backwards. I think that's partly why feelings are running so high. That's my perception of events anyway.
 
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Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Thanks for starting this discussion, @Bob.

I read some years ago (and have never been able to track down) about a 'maximum-consensus-finding' strategy for dealing with situations where there are two or more apparently opposed factions who can't agree. It was being used at a climate change conference about 20 years ago, when the two opposing sides were essentially rejecting each others' positions entirely.

What you do is identify the things on which you do agree. That's your maximum possible consensus, and you use it to take productive action based on that consensus.

You don't try to increase the consensus, and that's a crucial point. You identify it, and act on it.

We're a large community, and we don't think as one. We're not organised into parties. We'll never all agree on the report.

But if a large majority agree on certain things, perhaps we can act to get those implemented.

Just throwing it out there: not sure how this would work in our current situation but I think it could be useful to think about how we're going to find a way forward, rather than just focusing on which way forward is best.
 

CBS

Senior Member
Messages
1,522
I don’t think it's an either/or situation. There are things I like, things I don't about the IOM report.

While reading an unrelated article last week it brought up an interesting point that might (or not) apply to the IOM. While I was aware of this concept, I didn't realize it has a name. It's called the Perfect Solution fallacy. The following says it better than I can.



While it could be debated if this was the best option available, I tend to think realistically it is.

Change takes time and that is frustrating. Very, very frustrating. While we need to be ever vigilent about what is said, in my opinion, at this time, based on what I have read, I see more positives than negatives. But I am still in the process of wading through all the information, so will leave open the possibility of changing my mind.

I am just posting this as something to keep in mind. Other points both pro or con have been discussed on other threads.

Barb

And there are others who might describe this as simply "The Wrong Solution."

I don't see this as not being satisfied with the "perfect." I have real concerns about it doing lasting harm to research, as well as significant subsets of potentially misdiagnosed patients (both "in" and and "out"), patients dealing with insurance and disability claims, etc.

I too don't care about the name. It seems to be an improvement over CFS. But it just felt like the wrong place to focus upon. All the old names will likely disappear once biomarkers are identified.
 

daisybell

Senior Member
Messages
1,613
Location
New Zealand
I wonder whether the fact that the report is, in many ways, better than we had anticipated, is in fact part of the issue now? What I mean by that is- we were previously united in our concern about the process of the report etc, and now the report has taken us a bit by surprise. So the rug has been pulled from under us in a way in terms of our expectations of how we might respond, which makes us anxious.... Also, I think the report's potential for good or bad is very uncertain.

I don't know if that makes any sense!
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
- we were previously united in our concern about the process of the report etc, and now the report has taken us a bit by surprise. So the rug has been pulled from under us in a way in terms of our expectations of how we might respond, which makes us anxious.

That certainly makes sense. Interesting take.

Barb
 

OverTheHills

Senior Member
Messages
465
Location
New Zealand
As a patient I am an important stakeholder yet I was not included in the definition of the task, kept in the dark about progress and then the magic answer was delivered with a tah-dah noise. As an ex-project manager I can tell you that approach is VERY high on the list of things not to do, guaranteed to produce resistance and non-adoption of the desired change. Just stupid. My first reaction to the new name particularly - was haven't they learned anything about how to deal with people? Just listening (which they did for the report) is not enough when people have been abused by the system for 30 years. They are still stuck in 'doctor knows best'.

I think I have been somewhat wrongfooted by the IOM report. I expected it to be really bad, like the GWI report and I was never that clear (because of the complex processes split between P2P and IOM) on what would be delivered. I had given no thought to what would be a good report, good recommendations, a good name, good enough implementation plan. And I find there is a lot more to this IOM report/recommendations/diagnostics/name than I thought there would be, and some good things and some bad.

I don't think there is a need for instant reaction. I think a set of detailed reasoned patient views responding to IOM report but directed to HHS( with issues & risks and options analysis of potential ways forward) could be developed by patient group(s) over the next few weeks. And could carry some weight.

We can compare the IOM recommednations with accepting CCC. I think we could get quite a wide consensus on the patient view of issues risks and options, even if patients are still in disagreement about what is the best way forward.I see value in discussing things with our good allies like Lenny Jason and also getting what information we can about the IOM behind the scenes discussion.

OTH
 

OverTheHills

Senior Member
Messages
465
Location
New Zealand
I wonder whether the fact that the report is, in many ways, better than we had anticipated, is in fact part of the issue now? What I mean by that is- we were previously united in our concern about the process of the report etc, and now the report has taken us a bit by surprise. So the rug has been pulled from under us in a way in terms of our expectations of how we might respond, which makes us anxious.... Also, I think the report's potential for good or bad is very uncertain.

I don't know if that makes any sense!
Daisybell and I cross posted saying much the same thing, only daisybell is more concise!
 

Ren

.
Messages
385
What works - and why? What doesn't work - and why?

This was from a writing course I once had. The instructor made us use the above formula when critiquing each other's texts. It's simple, but it seemed to help generate useful comments.
 

Research 1st

Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.
Messages
768
IOM are not accurate to say no inflammation evidence is there for ME CFS. Anyone who has access to the internet can Google search CFS and inflammation to find their are published studies on neuroinflammation.

For example:

Neuroinflammation in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis: An 11C-(R)-PK11195 PET Study. Nakatomi Y1, Mizuno K, Ishii A, Wada Y, Tanaka M, Tazawa S, Onoe K, Fukuda S, Kawabe J, Takahashi K, Kataoka Y, Shiomi S, Yamaguti K, Inaba M, Kuratsune H, Watanabe Y. J Nucl Med. 2014 Mar 24.


Cort Johnson wrote about this paper and more:

Key Findings Needless to say ME/CFS patients had significantly higher levels of fatigue, pain, cognitive problems, and depression than healthy controls although levels of depression were below that required for a clinical diagnosis; Neuroinflammation in the brain overall was higher in ME/CFS patients than in healthy controls; Neuuroinflammation was higher in the key brain areas – the cingulate cortex, hippocampus, thalamus, midbrain, the pons, and the amygdala (many of which have previously been implicated as playing a role in ME/CFS and FM); Of the four proinflammatory cytokines measured only circulating levels of peripheral IFN-gamma were higher (but not significantly) in ME/CFS patients;

Source: http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...yelitis-back-future-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/


And then Dr Komarroff's comments about CFS involving low grade chronic brain inflammation at the IACFSME 2014 Conference were as follows:


In the Question and Answer session, Komaroff was asked if neuro-inflammation was not encephalomyelitis, to which he replied: Yes. If it were confirmed by multiple other investigators it would, for me, say that there is a low-grade, chronic encephalitis in these patients, that the image we clinicians have of encephalitis as an acute and often dramatic clinical presentation that can even be fatal has – may have – blinded us to the possibility that there may be an entity of long-lasting – many years long – cyclic, chronic, neuro-inflammation and that that underlies the symptoms of this illness”, commenting that it was “entirely plausible and these data are consistent with it”.

Source: http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Komaroff-Summary-San-Francisco-March-2014.htm


Just because an IOM or CDC doesn't allow for brain inflammation to be part of a proposed inclusionary criteria process for SEID, doesn't mean that it's not happening in PWME PWCFS.

We know experienced biomedical ME CFS researchers would have included (at the least) references to historical CFS neuroinflammation. As we know these ME CFS experts of a biomedical nature were removed from the ability to be included in the panel of the IOM's redefining of ME CFS.

We all know a Dr Cheney, Dr Bell, Dr Enlander, Dr De Meirleir, Dr Peterson, Dr Montoya team up would have involved something far more stringent that the SEID criteria: Chronic Fatigue, Cognitive Dysfunction/OI + PEM - all subjective and not requiring signs a doctor can measure.

A somatizer, a troubled depressive, and someone with a sleep disorder and stress can all legitimately meet SEID criteria, which is why certain psychiatrists welcomed SEID:

Chronic fatigue with no tests.
Difficulty thinking with no tests/Difficulty standing up with no tests.
Post exertional malaise with no tests.

BUT....someone with ME CFS can demonstrate their organic ME CFS with:

Balance testing, e.g. Romberg.
TILT testing to prove autonomic nervous system dysfunction. (neurological).
Psychoneurometric testing to demonstrate IQ vs predicted IQ.
Cardiac responses to upright posture, exertion, post exertion.
Inflammatory marker testing for immune activation.


So we can see no agreement of a compromise, SEID is not a 'disease' as no signs of disease are required for diagnosis. (Unlike ME).

SEID is not about ME biomedical CFS, it's about SEID, hence brain inflammation isn't on the cards.

SEID is useless for ME biomedical CFS, because the British CFS/ME already has Chronic Fatigue + PEM and this has gotten CFS/ME patients precisely nowhere other than to be dipped in PACE lies.

Giving the Americans a Fukuda CFS + PEM won't get ME biomedical CFS sufferers anywhere, guaranteed. PEM is not needed to be demonstrated and can still remain psychosomatic. Researchers can manipulate this, and will do. SEID simply buys governments in denial of what they've done, more time to let the infected people expire from disease and old age.

Conversely SEID is a great for people who want recognition for having unexplained heterogeneous chronic fatigue states that are to be taken more seriously than Fukuda CFS. For these people, SEID is great and will be welcomed. Nothing wrong with that, if you don't have ME or biomedical CFS and don't have a system state of low grade inflammation, autoimmunity, infection, and immune suppression - none of which are part of having SEID!

Hence if you have ME, you cannot have SEID, you exceed the criteria as you have proof you are sick. SEID requires no proof, as Fukuda CFS also required no proof, hence people can 'recover' with CBT, GE and stress management - unlike with MS and Lupus and unlike with ME.

And thus the IOM attempts to redefine biomedical CFS and ME as a 'SEID' is a big fail. Legally, scientifically, medically, and morally one cannot contain a crippling neuroinflammatory state within a label, that rejects the concept of this inflammation!

Those with ME and organic CFS that fit ME signs, need a place to be housed, the SEID has rejected them, so it will remain ME, especially once more research evidence comes to lights of neuroinflammation and the Ramsay hypothesis of an encephalomyelitis state being accurate.

Untreated Lyme (bacteria) can cause encephalomyeltis. Tie a pathogen into 'ME' and you have this becoming not a 'chance', but a certainty once you screen people with ME as having this infection and having brain inflammation, rather than getting a 20% positive cohort via CFS or SEID.

We all know this, they know this, and what will create lasting and meaningful respectful discussion, will be the permanent separation of SEID and Fukuda CFS, from ME via quality research, treatment, and the denied ME sufferers getting some function to their lives back to demonstrate they never had the heterogenous, CFS or SEID to begin with.

That is all the patients want and ask for. This cannot be achieved through heterogenous grouping. Ever. 1988-2015 has proven this. That's 27 years of suffering and deaths of the 'CFS' patients and 46 years for ME patients .

Someone should stand up and say, no, enough to this insane posturing with concept of disease and illness using no screening tests. Any doctor will agree with me, doctors needs tests or you're inviting in skepticism, and justified skepticism. Do you employ someone with a Phd who is thought to be intelligent, but is, because a brochure told you they are? A doctor must diagnose with evidence. The SEID requires no evidence at all, the patient is organically ill.
How curious it took a million bucks to pull that off, when it was FREE to use the ME-ICC and the CCC CFS which was more stringent than the weak SEID criteria!

Science, I believe, will be the 'person' to prove the inflammation. Meanwhile gutless officials continue sitting on their hands, whistling into the wind, ignoring the trail of human misery left behind. Everyone is watching, and waiting for science to provide the answers.

If science is permitted to study the cohorts of people with signs and symptoms of Ramsay's ME, you get a higher percentage outcome from studies. The IOM have signalled ME cannot be allowed to exist poltically. The IOM 'redefinition of ME CFS', is a proposed condition (SEID) that doesn't actually include tell-tale signs of suffering ME. Who dreamed that idea up? The 50 experts on ME who wrote to the IOM rejecting their proposal and played no part in creating SEID, or the fatigue clinic cheerleaders who are over the moon they can 'treat people' with unexplained chronic fatigue and sleep disorders needing no tests to diagnose their patients with the SEID?

So, sadly, no one can compromise if they have ME by accepting SEID as it doesn't allow their disease to be diagnosed, within the SEID, through evidence based means, using signs of disease or tests.

Confirmatory tests or signs (e.g. Parkinson's gait) in medicine are the necessary gold standard for diagnosis, never mind researching it, but the IOM don't want this for the redefinition of ME CFS.

Consider why, who benefits, when they benefit, and who doesn't benefit.
 
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user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Thanks for starting this discussion, @Bob.


You don't try to increase the consensus, and that's a crucial point. You identify it, and act on it.

We're a large community, and we don't think as one. We're not organised into parties. We'll never all agree on the report.

But if a large majority agree on certain things, perhaps we can act to get those implemented.

I don't see why anyone would expect a group of patients to agree on a report like this. What would be good is to get an understanding of the different views.

Whilst I haven't read the whole report I'm finding it quite hard to really form an opinion. I tend to think that any criteria anyone comes up with are purely arbitrary since we don't understand potential disease mechanisms. I worry that the inclusion of PEM will leave some people left out of any criteria (including some with PEM who don't realise as they are mildly affected or some who find it hard to recognise the pattern).

I wonder if there is an underlying message that we should be pulling out of this report which is there is too little replicated biomedical evidence to produce a really robust clinical diagnosis system. They say this with sub-typing and I assume this is behind the message that the criteria should be reviewed within 5 years. Hence I'm thinking as a patient community we should be able to use this report to demonstrate how little is known and push for more research whether we agree with their interpretation of what evidence is available or not.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
An independent report has a value: it can be said not to be tainted by external influences. If this report had been based on lots of consultation with patients, psychs and the like could have more easily dismissed it as more of a report by lay people/biased patients (who have maladaptive beliefs/behaviours).

Research papers and the like generally don't involve consulting with patients. This report is like a collection of a few review papers.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Others are in a panic because they think this is the worst possible outcome. i.e. the new criteria are a facade of being ME, but are in reality chronic fatigue on steroids. They anticipate their illness being permanently lost from the medical literature, and subsumed into 'SEID', a set of criteria that they find ridiculous.

You put that well Bob, its exactly how I feel.. new criteria "chronic fatigue on steroids" and all that rest.

They would of been far better off in getting community acceptance by firstly publishing the report of their findings.. checking with community if anything really wrong there.

Then publishing the definition and seeing how the community took it and if any big issues there and sorted that out (there is a big one there for me, my ME dont even fit it well thou I fit well into the CCC and the international ME).

Then they should of reached out to the communities and found out the most accepted names. Instead I honestly dont see how anything good is going to come out of that 1M dollars the American gov spent esp since its all not going to gain acceptance.

We needed something which would gain worldwide acceptance but this isnt going to do it well.

We probably all should be thinking at this point, is there a way to improve this situation.

If they added that a person had to have a couple of the non specific ME testable abnormalities showing on a test result and tell doctors what needs to be tested eg dysautonomia tests. and provided a list of these common ME testable abnormalities to the definition. I do think then the strong ME stance group would be able to bend and accept the new definition. (I know ive got at least 4 of non specific ME abnormalites and I havent even been tested for a lot of those).

A huge group will never be able to accept the new definition while it is so lax. Unless that is changed, my prediction is that there is going to be SEID and ME (the group who will never accept it) .. just like there is now ME and CFS.
 
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Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
I can propose a possible solution to this polarising problem.

Separate Myalgic Encephalomyelitis from Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease. Those who qualify for an ME diagnosis as per ME-ICC retain the ME name with its WHO ICD code under neurological diseases. Those who qualify with the IOM criteria retain the SEID name with the new ICD code that will be assigned to them.

It is impossible, as we are experience, to satisfy both groups. A patient with ME, whose symptoms are mainly myalgia and CNS inflammation will never be happy with the IOM criteria or the name SEID. Those that don't fit the ICC and perfectly fit the IOM criteria, do not suffer from myalgia or cns inflammation, will no be happy with ME.

Right now, it is like trying to fit oranges and bananas under a citrus category. No matter how convincing someone is, they will never convinve the banana that it is a citrus fruit.
 

Wally

Senior Member
Messages
1,167
@Nielk,
I can propose a possible solution to this polarising problem.
Right now, it is like trying to fit oranges and bananas under a citrus category. No matter how convincing someone is, they will never convinve the banana that it is a citrus fruit.

I liked your analogy of the banana and the citrus fruit. Here is a photo of what that might look like. I am not sure that I would want to buy this man-made fruit, let alone eat it. :p

FunnyBananaOrange.jpg
 
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Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
I would like to further expand on why I believe that my proposal of separating ME and SEID makes sense.

The IOM report states that the way they have come up with their criteria is to see which symptoms are the most prevalent in the patient community. For example, they have stated that O.I is more prevalent than pain or myalgia on questionnaires and comments from patients.

Bur which patients were consulted? If we follow my premise that SEID and ME patients have been pooled together, and the fact that there are many more patients suffering from SEID than ME, the results would be skewed favoring SEID patients.

I propose that had they questioned only patients who fit ME-ICC, the results would have been quiet different. For that reason, I do not believe that the IOM criteria properly describe ME patients per the ME-ICC.

Basically when criteria are created based on subjective symptoms, the results will be directly affected by which group of patients are represented.
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
Yes, I agree with you Nielk. I think that creating separate diagnostic groups is the only way to satisfy everyone. I'd be more than happy for the CCC or ICC to be used alongside the SEID, in clinical and research settings. (When I say 'alongside', I mean to make a distinct diagnosis where appropriate.) It seems quite sensible to me.

And you make a good point with regards to which cohort was scrutinised by the IOM committee: Obviously, if only CCC patients had been assessed then, by definition, 100% of them would suffer from pain.

From my personal perspective, for what it's worth, I'd definitely feel able to fully support advocacy efforts that were demanding that the CCC or ICC were used alongside the IOM criteria. And if others feel the same as me, I think such an approach would help those who are advocating for the CCC/ICC because it would mean that our community would be in unity and would not be fighting each against other.

In reality, I can't see the govt agencies ignoring the IOM criteria to adopt the CCC instead, so I think advocacy efforts in this vein would likely be wasted. I think it's more likely that they would ignore the IOM criteria and stick with Fukuda if we were to protest against the IOM recommendations.

So, to advocate that the CCC or ICC are adopted as separate criteria, would serve those who want to see the IOM recommendations implemented (possibly with a view to improving them in the future) and it would also serve those who want to see the ICC implemented. Win-win?
 
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Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
The only thing I worry about with splitting the two is that we don't actually know for sure that they're two distinct diseases. They could be a spectrum or different presentations of the same disease.
We don't know whether it's a single disease or if there are a number of distinct diseases. Likely there are a number of distinct illnesses that lie within the CFS and SEID definitions, and possibly even the ICC definition. We know next to nothing really. But if some people are strongly of the opinion that ME is a distinct disease, defined by the ICC, then I can't personally see any meaningful reason to object to that position. Others might disagree.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
But if some people are strongly of the opinion that ME is a distinct disease, defined by the ICC, then I can't personally see any meaningful reason to object to that position.
I don't object to it either, there's just that nagging thought in the back of my head. Obviously, for research purposes, patient groups need to be sharply defined with good criteria and I wouldn't feel comfortable with ME and SEID patients being studied as the same thing.