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Will Decreasing Heart rate help with Physical fatigue?

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by RK220, Jul 1, 2018.

  1. RK220

    RK220

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    Have been dealing with CFS for last 4 yrs. PEM is the biggest problem and has a threshold of walking for around 7 mins. Either walking or doing any physical activity the first symptoms i feel are the increased heart rate and lightheaded.

    My primary doctor suggested me to consult my cardiologist to prescribe beta blocker( either propranolol or Zebata) to reduce my heart rate. Basically to test if reducing my heart rate with medication will help increase my physical activity threshold.

    Would like to know if any one has tried these meds and will reducing the heart rate help in increasing my physical threshold?

    PS: I was tested and don't have POTS.
     
  2. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    I'm interested in that too, next week I'll visit a cardiologist, one that knows ME and sees many MEpatients
    I function much better then you but still housebound and resting heartrate about eighty.

    what's yours?
     
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  3. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    You could try Tu Si Zi (Dodder seed) which itself does lower the heart rate. Tu Si Zi has been found to increase the weight of the pituitary gland in animals which can help it's function which is one of the reasons why I use it because CFS has destroyed part of my pituitary. It also helps the HPA axis and the kidney/liver. It tones the kidney and liver Chi/Qi which is helpful and I have found it helps lower cortisol by it's kidney support. I also think that it might be what has retained such good kidney function being 40yrs T1 diabetic.

    The only real downside, besides bradycardia is that it can be a bit constipating probably due to it's tannin content. However for me it is worth counteracting that for it's benefits. BTW my resting heart rate is typically around 53-56 and down to 50, although I have had a bit lower than that, 48.

    It is often taken with Gou Qi Zi (Wolfberry) often corrupted to Goji berry. Be aware that these berries can be immune stimulating which might not be appropriate for everyone. Check this out to make sure it is suitable for you before use. It can be slightly stool loosening so it can tend to counteract Tu Si Zi's effects.

    Dosage of Tu Si Zi is usually 15grams/day split into 2 or 3 doses, I take it twice daily. Gou Qi Zi is also 10 to 15 grams/day.

    BTW I would not be without Tu Si Zi and I have been taking it for 20 years. Interestingly, I do not get PEM but I do still get very tired/exhausted, especially when I alter the foods that I eat due to extremely high digestive permeability.
     
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  4. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    I'll do some reading on that, looks like I might try it.

    wolf berry is a nightshade, but I think my belly has improved enough to handle it.

    the seeds, Tu Si Zi, can you get them crushed fine? I cannot digest seeds, they come out like they went in...
     
  5. Moof

    Moof Senior Member

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    I'm a bit confused about this. I don't know whether it's keeping the heart rate low or just lower physical and mental activity that helps. I have natural bradycardia (resting heart rate in the low to mid 40s, with a similarly lower than average rate after effort); it doesn't help my symptoms, though, and mental exertion without any increase in heart rate still causes PEM.
     
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  6. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    We are all different but, for me, It has helped tremendously, specially with the shortness of breath and that horrible fatigue. But by nature to normal plp they are supposed to cause fatigue (was not my case).

    Note = the same way it will lower your HR, it will lower the Anaerobic thresh hold, so if you are pacing, be careful not to over do. It is not proportional lowering and I have asked and nobody can give me a formula.

    But thumps up from me ( I do not take them as much anymore) took for about 4 years? Can't remember, trying ivabridine now joined with beta blocker. But will restart that this week. Had to suspend all pills due to stomach bug.
     
  7. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    I do have a dodder seed extract which is a powder but I never found it as effective as the seeds.

    Tu Si Zi is used as a decoction, you boil them. The recommended is 30 minutes but I boil them for 1 hour.

    With a good light, watch for a blue oil on the surface after boiling, because I believe that is important, at least for the toning effect on the liver and kidney energies, what TCM term Chi/Qi. Chi is affected by repressed drives and emotions. Ageing lowers Chi because of long term repressing of emotions/drives which reduces the nerve impulses to the body, lowering it's function over time. Reversing that improves the function of the body and can reverse ageing by increasing the bodies healing and restorative powers. This has been known about by TCM for thousands of years. By comparison science and medicine knows very little IMO. They give normal ranges but cannot explain the reason for those range of "normal" values. Genes do play a part but Chi is also a very big part of it and explains why one persons blood samples can vary throughout life.

    I think that I am a lot like you in terms of digestion. My stomach function is very poor, acid is suppressed by an infection which adversely affects stomach function. My pancreas digestive function is also very weak and anything hard or sold is not broken down unless chewed well. I have been trying to destroy this with a little success but not yet complete, other things have been getting in the way.
     
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  8. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member

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    Same here. My HR is as low as 40 when resting and I still have shortness of breath, PEM and so forth. Low HR probably doesn’t help with dizziness and nausea. When I get up, my HR can rise up to 130.

    But, having said that, maybe for someone having fast HR, lowering it might bring relief. I would carefully consider it if I was in your position.
     
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  9. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    thanks, I found a trustable dutch adress, they sell the seeds. concoction sounds fine to me.

    you wrote about 15 grams a day in two or three times. So I make a concoction. Let it cool. Drinking on empty stomach? or with food? How much water do you use for those 15 grams.

    in other words: what's the recipe :)

    I will start with smaller amount though, feel what it does with the body.
    I'm real sure that something is wrong with the liver, and this sounds sort of like: i'm gonna try this.
     
  10. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    Use 15g a day and work from that. I multiply that quantity for a large saucepan which last me about 3.5 days.

    So 15g makes 2 doses for me. I use a large mug as 1 dose. Work it out as the concentration for your pans/mugs.

    I saw from a thread on this forum that a number of people were showing a damage to their pituitary which I would expect because the infection causes that damage to the pituitary AND also the the hypothalamus. The vagus nerve when attacked causes this damage. Tu Si Zi as I mentioned does increase the size and function of the pituitary which might be helpful. I doubt that it will help the destroyed part but the remaining part might help make up for the destroyed part. Destroying the infection should allow the body ie stem cells to heal and restore the damage, at least to some degree.

    The price in the UK has dramatically risen. I paid £8.50 for 500g in february this year. It now cost nearly £16 for the same quantity. I was paying around £6 when I started using it. Fortunately I purchased 12 which should last me a long time, hopefully I will fix everything and hopefully I will not need any more.

    Tu Si Zi has also shown some anti cancer effects too.
    [post updated]
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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  11. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    yes, thanks, I saw it is f*#*#*ng expensive.
    6 euro for 100grams....
    I'll go searching if I can find a better price....

    If I had energy ( and if I still had my large gardenplot) I would grow it myself....
    but for now that's out, I'll see and hope this will help me
     
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    My mom, who had ME, also had tachycardia (high resting heart rate like over 100 bpm). She took a beta blocker for it. Unfortunately, the beta blocker can also cause some fatigue.

    For that reason, I would not suggest taking a beta blocker unless you really need to. Although I suppose you could always give it a try and see if the extra fatigue is tolerable.

    If your resting heart rate is ok, but when you do activity your heart rapidly goes over your anaerobic threshold, causing PEM, you can get a heart rate monitor to assist with pacing.

    http://www.cfidsselfhelp.org/librar...our-heart-rate-to-stay-inside-energy-envelope

    There is a support group for this somewhere. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it right now.

    Here are a couple of blog posts from Jenny Spotilla who has also experimented with this:

    http://occupyme.net/2013/07/02/heart-rate-and-beta-blockers/

    http://occupyme.net/exercise-testing-and-results/
     
  13. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    I seem to remember that it is a parasitical plant so growing it is not a viable option unless you can grow something else that it can feed off. It has no chlorophyll so it cannot make any food by photosynthesis for itself so it leeches nutrients from the host plant.
     
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  14. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    Sundancer likes this.
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Thanks for the link - it sure does a lot of stuff.

    Edited to add: The cuscuta, not the link. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  16. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    Oops, sorry caledonia but I should of prompted @Sundancer instead.
     
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