Why so many Vitamins and Minerals

[Mary]

Particularly the deadly tiredness I feel. Symptoms include swollen face and paralysis, muscle weakness and even ADHD-like.

@Rita1979 - I'd never heard of hypokalemic sensory overload before - that's a bit mind-blowing. So many people here have sensory overload and I'm now wondering if at least sometimes it may be due to hypokalemia. I have had the deadly fatigue with low potassium. It's different than any other kind of fatigue. But not the swollen face or paralysis, and now I mainly get muscle twitching, I think because my potassium just does not get as low as it used to, because I'm on top of it now that I know what's going on!

Do you have any experience with respect to the dosage? How much is safe?

I would probably start with adding 1 g daily to my Mg-oxide solution. That should be safe? What about 3 g? How much can one safely exceed the RDA?

I can't answer these questions for you, we're all different. The RDA for potassium is around 4700 mg. When I first learned about low potassium in 2010 after I started taking methylfolate, I titrated up to 1000 mg a day in divided doses over 2 or 3 days and that was the dose which caused my severe fatigue to abate. I think I probably took 200 mg 3 x a day, increasing till I got to 1000 mg. a day. some people need more, some need less. My suggestion is to go slowly and work up gradually to the dose that works for you, in divided doses. Our bodies have trouble processing a large amount all at once.

I take potassium 4 times a day, with each meal and before bed, and sometimes I even need to take it in the middle of the night. And I drink low-sodium V8 as well. Recently I increased my benfotiamine and CoQ10, and my need for potassium almost doubled to close to around 1800 mg- I'm pretty sure it had to do with either the extra benfotiamine or CoQ10, or both, although after a couple of weeks I'm finally getting back down to close to my original dose of potassium. You have to make sure you're okay on all your electrolytes too - sodium, magnesium, etc.

 

[Mary]

The absorption of the water-soluble form of Thiamine is at 1-2mg -

Interesting - I read somewhere else it's 4 to 8 mg. at a time, but you're right, it's low. But I wonder if a person took such a low dose if all of it would be absorbed; in other words, do you have to take a higher dose in order to be able to absorb how much you actually need? I didn't notice a big difference when I switched from plain thiamine, which I started with, to benfotiamine, but muscle testing indicates the benfotiamine is better for me. Did you know that thiamine can help with congestive heart failure? It's an amazing vitamin. I have a brother-in-law who drank heavily for years and years, and even more years, and now has congestive heart failure. And my sister (his wife) started giving him thiamine on my recommendation and his functioning has noticeably improved. Also the diuretics they give you for CHF also deplete thiamine, but so does alcohol and poor diet.

after two weeks of daily 500mg I started to have cracked corners of the mouth which didn't seem to heal.

The cracked corners of your mouth can also indicate other B vitamin deficiencies. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_cheilitis) The niacin may have increased your need for some of the other Bs, inducing a deficiency. And several articles mentioned low B2 in particular as being a cause of this problem. I'm glad you solved this mystery!

One interesting side effect of Riboflavin is that my eyes started to look moist and shiny again for a long time they looked really tired and dry.

That's nice to hear!

 

[Eastman]

On the absorption of thiamine:

Pharmacokinetics of high-dose oral thiamine hydrochloride in healthy subjects

Abstract
Background
High dose oral thiamine may have a role in treating diabetes, heart failure, and hypermetabolic states. The purpose of this study was to determine the pharmacokinetic profile of oral thiamine hydrochloride at 100 mg, 500 mg and 1500 mg doses in healthy subjects.

Methods
This was a randomized, double-blind, single-dose, 4-way crossover study. Pharmacokinetic measures were calculated.

Results
The AUC0-10 hr and Cmax values increased nonlinearly between100 mg and 1500 mg. The slope of the AUC0-10 hr vs dose, as well as the Cmax vs dose, plots are steepest at the lowest thiamine doses.

Conclusion
Our study demonstrates that high blood levels of thiamine can be achieved rapidly with oral thiamine hydrochloride. Thiamine is absorbed by both an active and nonsaturable passive process.

 

[Rita1979]

@Mary

Just very short. My Potassium Chloride arrived some days ago and I am taking at least 1 - 2 gram with my coffee. Together with Magnesium Chloride. I haven't had the deadly tiredness since then. I will report if it stays such.

I also noticed that on the days when I was flushing with niacin two or three hours I felt irritable and emotionally quite unstable. I found another thread by @hansieg here, where similar with respect to the mood was observed.

This is, as well as the tiredness after the flush and the cold feeling, are gone.

There are three options:
Riboflavin, Magnesium or Potassium.

But since the Potassium is the most recent and the depressed state only disappeared in the last days, I suppose it must be the Potassium. I cannot know for sure... but wanted to leave the information here in case anybody observes similar.

 

[Mary]

@Rita1979 - I'm so glad that for whatever reason you are feeling better! Low potassium was very rough on me, made me very very tired.

I have to play detective with this illness, like you are doing. I often wish I could have instant testing (like diabetics do with blood sugar) for different things like potassium, etc. - maybe someday!

 

[Rita1979]

@Mary yes, it feels like playing detective... if I didn't observe so many improvements I would have given up already long ago. I am even thinking about quitting my thyroid hormones at some point in the not so far future. I already reduced the dose and tolerate it much better than I did in the past. I guess I was partially compensating for something else with the thyroid hormones.

I don't even now anymore if I believe in illness anymore... so many things disappeared or changed due to the vitamins that I think my body was just really really out of balance for whatever reason.

Are you stable at the moment? Do you do well?

 

[Mary]

Are you stable at the moment? Do you do well?

I think I'm relatively stable. I take a ton of supplements that I've accumulated over several years through lots of reading and experimentation, and these supplements have helped me a LOT. I have days where I feel normal; however, I still can't exceed 3-1/2 to 4 hours of light activity a day - otherwise I crash the next day. Nothing has changed that. And then every time I crash I start to get sick, I've done this for years. But my crashes are lighter than they used to be and I recover more quickly. And I don't get as sick as I used to.

So I'm pretty stable in the sense that I pretty much know what to expect from my body and I often feel halfway decent, which I know is more than many here. I've recently become aware that my phosphorous levels are not that stable and I have to stay on top of that as well to avoid another kind of fatigue. But knowledge is power. The more I know, the more control I have.

I use muscle testing a lot in determining what I need and what is going on. I first had a chiropractor do muscle testing on me over 20 years ago and it blew me away - he helped me when no doctor could. And time and again it's helped me sort out what's going on, and what I need to do.

I hope you continue to make progress!

 

[purplelady]

What kind of Vitamin C do you take?

 

[Learner1]

Niacin can reverse methylation, so in many cases, it can be counterproductive. Your body can convert tryptophan to niacin if you have sufficient B6 and riboflavin.

Riboflavin is needed for proper mitochondrial function.

 

[SherDa]

@Rita1979 - I'm so glad that for whatever reason you are feeling better! Low potassium was very rough on me, made me very very tired.

I have to play detective with this illness, like you are doing. I often wish I could have instant testing (like diabetics do with blood sugar) for different things like potassium, etc. - maybe someday!

Potassium and other electrolytes can be taste-tested. Stir 1/8 tsp of potassium chloride powder into a cup of warm water (the size of the average coffee mug). The better it tastes, the more a person needs potassium. If one doesn't need potassium, it will taste awful. Sodium chloride can be used to test sodium levels and Epsom salts can be used to test magnesium levels.

 

[Mary]

@SherDa - hmmm …. I've never heard of that before. But I do crave salt a lot and figure I need it. And sometimes low-sodium V8 tastes extra good - it's high in potassium chloride. Though I've never tried Epsom salts!

 

[SherDa]

I have yet to meet someone who didn't like a pinch of Epsom salt in their water. Dasani bottled water has Epsom salt/magnesium sulfate in it. It's one of the best-selling bottled waters in the US. It's not as scary as it sounds

 

[Rita1979]

Potassium and other electrolytes can be taste-tested. Stir 1/8 tsp of potassium chloride powder into a cup of warm water (the size of the average coffee mug). The better it tastes, the more a person needs potassium. If one doesn't need potassium, it will taste awful. Sodium chloride can be used to test sodium levels and Epsom salts can be used to test magnesium levels.

@SherDa thank you. I really was surprised how much I liked the taste in my coffee. I added 1 g Magnesium Chloride and 1 g Potassium Chloride to each cup which is approximately 100mg elemental Magnesium and 500mg elemental Potassium. The taste is amazing.

I think the same goes for zinc and others. Also by knowing about the main sources of many nutrients one can guess/estimate which ones the body is missing right now. E.g. while I was supplementing Vitamin A I really did not want to eat liver at all. Few months after I stopped supplementing Vitamin A I wanted to eat liverwurst all the time. The same I could observe with respect to my Methylfolate supplementation and fresh bakers yeast. I barely could get enough of it in the time when I couldn't use the supplement and right after the new package arrived I could not have cared less about the yeast

Thank you for pointing out the important role of glycine. Since I was deriving most of my protein from diary, I probably also had a low intake of glycine. I would have definitely missed that. For the beginning I added 10 g of gelatin to my protocol, which should be approximately 2300mg of glycine.

@Mary Potassium really helps. Since this month my PMS is next to non-noticable I also searched for a connection between Potassium and PMS and it surprisingly seems to exist. You helped me a lot. Really. Thank you <3

 

[Mary]

Since this month my PMS is next to non-noticable I also searched for a connection between Potassium and PMS and it surprisingly seems to exist.

This is new information for me - very interesting! I'm really glad the potassium is helping you so much!

 

[Sophiedw]

I emphatically agree!! I would just add that mitochondrial dysfunction, I think also causes a need for high doses of vitamins and nutrients.

Although, I believe that also is caused by the inflammation/oxidative stress from dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability.

I feel better and am doing better than I have in over 10 years! This is from treating dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability, daily, for the last year.

Best of all, I continue to improve on this protocol!! I don't feel stuck! I just started walking about 1/2 mile every other day about a week ago, with no signs of PEM.

Jim

Hey Jim,

Can you please share what you did to treat your symbiosis and gut, or link me to a thread where you have discussed this?

Many thanks

 

[Learner1]

I have yet to meet someone who didn't like a pinch of Epsom salt in their water. Dasani bottled water has Epsom salt/magnesium sulfate in it. It's one of the best-selling bottled waters in the US. It's not as scary as it sounds

Something to be aware of:

"Epsom salts contains the active compound magnesium sulfate and is used most commonly as a laxative. There are potential serious toxic effects, including cardiac arrest, when the serum concentration rises above therapeutic values."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc
Other full case: Deliberate overdose with Epsom salts - NCBI - NIH

 

[pamojja]

Something to be aware of:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc
Other full case: Deliberate overdose with Epsom salts - NCBI - NIH

Are you serious? This woman intentional ingested 2kg of epsom salt in an suicide attempt! (how desperate one must be!)

The most any mineral water contains is probably Rogadska DonatMg with 3.2g Mg-sulfate (or 1g elemental Mg per litter), which I drink since many years a bottle a day. 2kg of epsom salt is 625 times that amount in one go!

Long before one would suffer from the epsom salt ingested with the 625 liter of mineral water, one would die of the water itself. The dose always makes the poison. In this case the amount of water would definitely be more poisonous than the epson salt itself.

 

[Learner1]

Are you serious? This woman intentional ingested 2kg of epsom salt in an suicide attempt! (how desperate one must be!)

The most any mineral water contains is probably Rogadska DonatMg with 3.2g Mg-sulfate (or 1g elemental Mg per litter), which I drink since many years a bottle a day. 2kg of epsom salt is 625 times that amount in one go!

Long before one would suffer from the epsom salt ingested with the 625 liter of mineral water, one would die of the water itself. The dose always makes the poison. In this case the amount of water would definitely be more poisonous than the epson salt itself.

Electrolytes are important, but too much or too little of them can be dangerous. Well worth understanding one's own situation and supplementing within safe limits.

 

[Alvin2]

In my opinion with what you are taking you seem to be highly overmedicated.

I would consider trying to figure out what the real issue is, assuming your not responding to the placebo effect i suspect you have some undiagnosed condition.

Your intake levels of Iodine, Selenium and Iron could be toxic long term.

I would start with getting your vitamin levels tested, if you are not high in everything you are taking then malabsorption could be a cause. Also the Synthroid make sure you are taking the correct dose, you may need more. As for coming off it that may not be possible if your body cannot produce enough and suggests you want natural treatment over "drugs".

 

[Judee]

I didn't know what category to put this under but have a doctor's appointment on Tuesday and wanted to make sure nothing I'm taking will affect any blood tests she might do if any:
https://www.mdlinx.com/article/common-drugs-that-can-interfere-with-lab-tests/lfc-4993

Also interesting to note that acetaminophen (not a supplement though) can make blood glucose meter readings higher.