"Why I [Ezekiel Emanuel] Hope to Die at 75"

[*GG*]

adreno, IF you care (big IF there), particularly in the U.S., the lines between Left and Right are not so clear cut as they may be in Europe. The Liberal/Progressive Left in the U.S. has absorbed and internalized some of the uglier aspects of what used to be (or still are) hard-right socialist/Marxist ideologies in Europe.

We are living in deeply weird times.

Are you saying that people on the right are socialist? News to me, sure they like Social Security for the most part. NAZI stands for socialism, does it not? And I don't thin they were on the right, they got there ideas from radicals on the left in the USA, right?

GG

 

[adreno]

Are you saying that people on the right are socialist? News to me, sure they like Social Security for the most part. NAZI stands for socialism, does it not? And I don't thin they were on the right, they got there ideas from radicals on the left in the USA, right?

GG

Fascism is usually considered right-wing, although not everyone agrees:

Although fascism is usually placed on the far-right on the traditional left–right spectrum, a number of academics have said that the description is inadequate.

Same goes for Nazism:

A majority of scholars identify Nazism in practice as a form of far-right politics.[6] Far-right themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate over other people and purge society of supposed inferior elements.

 

[*GG*]

Well isn't this just what Progressives usually do. They scrub/rewrite history so the unwashed masses follow them again, to whatever utopia they are now promising!

Wikipedia is also not a great source, isn't it controlled by a few people?

GG

 

[Lou]

@adreno

Your entire post is simply mean spirited, like a child that got his feelings hurt and lashes out.

It's obvious you didn't read the post you addressed, at least with any comprehension, nobody called you a fascist or even hinted at such. I referred quite clearly to what originally (in this thread, if you need it spelled out) riled me and the references and leapfrogging to fascism and Nazism were made by others earlier in this thread. Apparently you weren't that interested in reading or comprehending them either. And neither did I say you regurgitated Fox news.

The post by whodathunkit following yours is so filled with non sequiturs and opposites of actual circumstance I won't even address it. In fact, I'm through here.

And I'm finished --as in trying to be cordial-- with you, too, sport, now that I've seen your true color. Calling anyone dumb is a cheap shot --we're separated by an ocean and I'm pretty sure you'd not try that face to face.

 

[Valentijn]

Are you saying that people on the right are socialist? News to me, sure they like Social Security for the most part.

"Conservative" here in Europe usually refers to economically conservative - that is, in favor of regulating the market. And "liberal" is supportive of an unregulated market.

Whereas in the US those terms are used in more social terms, rather than economic terms, meaning everything is pretty well switched around. Though even the most "conservative" Dutch politicians by US definitions will never publicly oppose certain well-established institutions. Universal health care doesn't get challenged at all, nor gay marriage (with the possible exception of the smaller fringe Christian party - they don't even think women should vote), death penalty, etc.

 

[adreno]

It's obvious you didn't read the post you addressed, at least with any comprehension, nobody called you a fascist or even hinted at such. I referred quite clearly to what originally (in this thread, if you need it spelled out) riled me and the references and leapfrogging to fascism and Nazism were made by others earlier in this thread. Apparently you weren't that interested in reading or comprehending them either. And neither did I say you regurgitated Fox news.

If that's the case, and you feel that I am not part of this, then I suggest you address those people rather than me.

And I'm finished --as in trying to be cordial-- with you, too, sport, now that I've seen your true color. Calling anyone dumb is a cheap shot --we're separated by an ocean and I'm pretty sure you'd not try that face to face.

Calling anyone a fascist for criticizing Emanuel is dumb in my opinion. But yeah, perhaps it was mean-spirited. But I didn't exactly feel that you were being nice to me, so I guess you deserved it. Didn't you start your post with a verbal punch to my stomach?

 

[rosie26]

I'm aware that if you go far enough left, you'll be coming to the right, i.e, the views of the extreme right and left are in many ways similar.

LOL from me too! Yes, well put.

 

[akrasia]

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/

Andrew Sullivan, blogmeister at the Daily Dish, linked to the article, praising its "honesty" and "courage". To his credit he published an excerpt from a very powerful dissent by Damon Linker,

http://theweek.com/article/index/268589/should-you-hope-to-die-at-75-absolutely-not

Reading Emanuel’s essay, I began to despair — not just about the moral outlook it expresses, but about whether its readers will even recognize how monstrous it is. Emanuel has taken the ethic of meritocratic striving that currently dominates elite culture in the United States and transformed it into a comprehensive vision of the human good. Viewed in its light, the only life worth living is one in which you endlessly, relentlessly strive to look as smart and clever as possible in the eyes of other smart and clever people. The ultimate goal of such a life is to be considered the smartest and cleverest person of all. Once old age or any other misfortune gets in the way of continually striving for that goal, one might as well cease to exist.

In a comment Linker notes that Emanuel's sister has cerebral palsy...

The whole essay is worth reading.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@akrasia I read the counter article you posted and it is very well written. I liked what he said re: eugenics due to narcissism!

I do wonder what Emmanuel would say re: his sister with CP and whether her life is worth living? I bet he would make an exception for her and I think his theory is all academic and in reality if his loved ones got cancer or in a horrible car accident, I am sure he would want them to get treatment.

 

[whodathunkit]

The typical problem with people who hold views like Zeke's is that they most often think these views are right for other people and other people's loved ones. But when faced with personally applicable consequences of their own views, they find extraordinary ways to rationalize exempting themselves and their loved ones.

Alexander Graham Bell, for instance, was quite the eugenicist, who believed that people of substandard abilities shouldn't be allowed to breed. But his mother was deaf and he himself married a deaf woman, and IIRC he had four children with her. Very weird, complex mix of views in this guy.

I'm deaf, BTW. Without my hearing aids, I hear little to nothing except the low rumble of traffic.

AFAIC kind of like celebrities who campaign against "global warming" and smugly congratulate themselves on driving Priuses in their off time, chide us regular citizens that we should all "reduce our carbon footprints", and then they themselves own private jets (which they use to travel to global warming conferences), two-three houses, plus at least two more cars that are extreme gas guzzlers. Al Gore and Leonardo DiCaprio (who I happen to think is very hot ) come to mind as good illustrations of this "Do as I say, not as I do" phenomenon.

Basically, these people want others to live by these values they espouse, but think they're doing their part just by championing the values. Actually walking the walk doesn't much enter into it.

As long as you're rich enough, or well-connected enough, you can rationalize (aka weasel) your way out of any personal consequences arising from your most "deeply held" beliefs, while at the same time convincing others that it's just fine that you weasel.

IMO for someone who has a relative with a disease like CP to write an op-ed like Zeke's makes it *even more* appalling.

 

[Wildcat]

@whodathunkit - good post, I agree. (with the exception of the Leonardo DiCaprio bit, he leaves me cold, but who can account for taste, lol).... Eugenics has a pretty scary history.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Wildcat: It was totally unexpected. He got me in "Blood Diamond". Both him and Djimon Hounsou in the same movie. YOWSER.

 

[akrasia]

@Gingergrrl

I do wonder what Emmanuel would say re: his sister with CP and whether her life is worth living? I bet he would make an exception for her and I think his theory is all academic and in reality if his loved ones got cancer or in a horrible car accident, I am sure he would want them to get treatment.

I agree, he would, but there would be an implicit reproach if they failed to recover to the level of health they previously enjoyed. Is he kind to his sister? Who knows, but whether he's kind or not, would you want him as a brother, or in your life at all, knowing that he finds your "humanity" diminished by your condition, if only in the "abstract"

Over the last few days, I've been watching a documentary on the Roosevelts, Theodore, Franklin, and Eleanor. Both Teddy and FDR had to deal with health challenges. What struck me about their stories was that in Teddy's case it was framed agonistically, Teddy vs. Asthma, or Teddy vs. some terrible tropical disease, and a self described triumph which added to his myth.

Franklin's story was very different. Afflicted with a severe case of polio, which paralyzed his legs, his story is an ongoing narrative of the growing recognition of vulnerability and interdependence as a basis for rational, compassionate action on both domestic and global stages. He found strength and comfort when he accepted his disability and saw it not only as a challenge to his own ambitions but as a way of appreciating the suffering of others.

As Linker argues, the aversion to physical or mental compromise is really an inability to imagine the value of ordinary lives. Instead, Emmanuel hijacks a debate on serious end of life questions and offers up an ideal that is an elite intellectual's version of values embodied in something as meretricious as the Miss America Pageant.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@akrasia I totally agree with everything you said and his article bothers me more and more every time I think about it. It would be one thing if his position was re: suffering and if someone at age 75 (or any adult) faced an illness with terrible pain and disability and there was no treatment or relief. Then I support that person making an informed decision to stop their treatment and end their life.

But he is saying just b/c you reach an arbitrary age of 75 you should basically pack it in and prepare to die. My mother's dentist is in his 80's, and is not only still a practicing dentist, but he left today on a two month volunteer trip to provide free dental care to kids in South America. He is physically and cognitively fully intact and in better shape than I am.

You can contribute to the world at any age or you can be ill at any age. A person's inherit worth is not related to their age, ability, or form in my opinion. I do wonder how he treats his sister with CP but I suspect he treats her nicely and his theories are all academic (which make them even more hypocritical.)

 

[Ren]

I edited the title of the thread from the actual article title, "Why I Hope to Die at 75" to "Why I [Ezekiel Emanuel] Hope to Die at 75" - with the author's name in brackets.

It felt wrong that anyone should be reading/re-reading to themselves "Why I hope to die...Why I hope to die..." whenever the thread popped up.

 

[Tito]

The typical problem with people who hold views like Zeke's is that they most often think these views are right for other people and other people's loved ones.

And the typical problem with people who hold opposite views to "Zeke's" (sic) is that they most often think these views are right for other people and other people's loved ones.

I had an aunt who was diagnosed with terminal cancer and when she refused treatment she was bullied by doctors and nurses because according to them "there are more effective ways to commit suicide". Her final weeks were a nightmare in that hospital. Everybody forgot that ultimately it was her body and therefore her choice.

If Emanuel does not want to live beyond 75, so what? If Linker wants to live beyond 75, so what? Both views have pros and cons. Only Emanuel's view is not politically correct. No need to misspell his name.

Alexander Graham Bell, for instance, was quite the eugenicist, who believed that people of substandard abilities shouldn't be allowed to breed. But his mother was deaf and he himself married a deaf woman, and IIRC he had four children with her. Very weird, complex mix of views in this guy.
I'm deaf, BTW. Without my hearing aids, I hear little to nothing except the low rumble of traffic.

You know, my sight is extremely poor, but I've never felt upset by people who may think my life is of a lower quality as a result. I am still capable of envisaging things and concepts beyond my own circumstances.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Tito, try reading the whole thread before you assume what anyone thinks is right or wrong regarding the way life should end or when, okay? There are three pages in this thread. You very apparently only read page three.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I edited the title of the thread from the actual article title, "Why I Hope to Die at 75" to "Why I [Ezekiel Emanuel] Hope to Die at 75" - with the author's name in brackets.

It felt wrong that anyone should be reading/re-reading to themselves "Why I hope to die...Why I hope to die..." whenever the thread popped up.

@Ren I hope you didn't change the title of your thread b/c of me! When I said the article was upsetting to me, I meant the concept, not the title. Just wanted to clarify.

 

[Ren]

@Ren I hope you didn't change the title of your thread b/c of me! When I said the article was upsetting to me, I meant the concept, not the title. Just wanted to clarify.

No, it (the article title) just seemed to often be there when I went to the forum page, and I didn't want to re-read it, and I didn't want it to be forced on others.

I almost asked what people thought about changing/modifying the thread title before I did change it, but then I decided to go with "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission". And so I modified it (by the powers vested in me.)