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What are the best Herbs for CFS/Leaky gut?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by ChrisD, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. ChrisD

    ChrisD Senior Member

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    My latest venture into biohacking myself will be the herbal route as I have tried many other things, and feel that I may have an underlying infection hiding out somewhere in my body.

    I have used Boswellia, Ginger, Turmeric before for Joint pain and they seem to have worked to lower inflammation. I have used Milk Thistle when my liver function seemed to be really awful and that helped too.
    And I have tried Ginseng but I am not really sure if that did anything at all.

    Now I am looking towards herbs that can heal leaky gut and aid the HPA axis.

    But which Herbs have helped you most and in which area? and which ones were a waste of your time?
     
    MEMum likes this.
  2. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Basil is my favourite ...especially on a tomato and Mozarella salad drizzled with olive oil. I especially like to mop up the juice with some homemade focaccia. Sorry couldn't resist :D
     
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  3. ChrisD

    ChrisD Senior Member

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  4. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    After extensive research I've found basil definitely the best (ripped not chopped) Greek basil at a push :)

    Regarding gut, I can't open the link but remember reading that oil of oregano has been quoted quite a bit along with coconut (although not a herb) I've never tried anything other than coconut oil and this pretty much did nothing other than make everything taste of coconut ( I really must throw that old jar out from the back of my fridge...it's probably as rancid as hell by now).

    I think there are a lot of different regimes out there but they are all quite food faith/lifestyle based and pretty free and easy quoting pseudo science from memory (all quite theoretical and sometimes contradictory). My gut issues were massively improved by reducing carbs (<150g per day) in my diet so I never experimented further. I'm sure having high doses of b12 and folate have also helped symptoms somewhat. Unfortunately I still have ME/CFS though :grumpy:.
     
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  5. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    Chinese Tu Si Zi (Dodder seed) without a doubt. I could not live without it. Dosage is up to 15 grams/day in divided doses of 2 or possibly 3 times. I am almost certain it is that which has maintained my excellent kidney function for the 25 years that I have used it. It is often used with Gou Qi Zi (wolfberry sometimes corrupted to Goji berry). I boil a large saucepan using 54 grams of Tu Si Zi with about 38 grams of wolfberry. Be aware that wolfberry is yin in nature and it is immune system stimulating and can in large doses cause diarrhoea but it does require eating large amounts of the berries to get to that. They taste very sweet and seem so applicable to me, it's unfortunate that they contain so much sugar.

    BTW I dislike the misnomer "leaky gut" because it does not accurately describe where the real problem lies. People think gut and think colon and in some cases small intestine but leaky gut is not primarily in any of these places. Faults with tight junctions is also inaccurate because the cause is nothing of the sort. I have read books on this and all the research is incorrect and all the recommended nutrients are useless.....save your money because they will not solve it! The thread on this forum is also totally inaccurate and will never solve it. That is because Increased Digestive Permeability is caused by a bacterial infection. Did you know that helicobacter pylori causes IDP for the exact same reason but h. pylori is weak by comparison and succumbs to triple therapy whereas that does not defeat the bacteria which cause IDP. I have been attempting to defeat multiple infections and I have had some success and some encouraging results but more is needed to defeat them. They are that antibiotic resistant and can adapt to most things and it takes a lot to defeat them. I will probably say more when I have beaten them but that is some weeks away until I have everything I need to make any more attempts. Every CFS should focus on solving this because it is only by defeating them that they will ever find a cure.

    The charity funded research being done at East Anglia University is overdue to be published but it looks like they have withheld it so that other members of their team can try and find the cause of the IDP. I very much doubt that they will find anything. That research began at the end of 2013 and I worked out the cause in Jan 2014. I have learnt a lot about what needs to be done in order to defeat these bacteria but I am still missing an important thing (EPI) which would make it so much easier.
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Nonsense. Leaky gut appears in the small intestine, and can also appear in the colon. Leaks appear in the intestinal lining when the tight junctions, which normally bind the epithelial cells together to create an impermeable barrier, are opened. When tight junctions are opened — and various factors can open them — it allows the contents of the intestine pass in an uncontrolled manner into the bloodstream.

    Opened Tight Junctions on the Intestinal Wall Leading to Leaky Gut
    Increased_intestinal_permeability.png
    Source: here



    I can find no reference online for the ability of Tu Si Zi to reduce leaky gut.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Some supplements that can reduce leaky gut are listed in this post.
     
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  8. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    L- glutamine and as bonus no more Cfs latic acid like pain!!!!
     
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  9. Carl

    Carl Senior Member

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    I have read it all before and it is utter rubbish that will only delay people finding a solution! None of the nutrients in that thread actually work. L-Glutamine is not necessary to heal Increase Digestive Permeability, as soon as the infection is eliminated the digestive system heals within minutes WITHOUT needing any nutrient. It cannot heal until that is done and that is why very few people ever fix it. When I fixed it I used no L-Glutamine. Some of the treatments, such as the one which can take years, which uses chelation do sometimes help because chelation is an indirect method of treating a biofilm. It's not focused enough to be an effective treatment. Have you yet fixed it? No because you failed to defeat the real cause.

    You wouldn't because it doesn't and I never said that it did. But it is excellent for the HPA axis and the liver and kidney function, including the adrenal function in particular. I had a short test done to test for adrenal failure which I was certain that I did not have. The night before I stopped taking it which I do not like doing. As a result my cortisol result showed an extremely high level when the test was taken in the morning.
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Can you back up your statements with some factual scientific references? You are saying that the whole scientific understanding of the mechanism of leaky gut, it causes, and its treatment is wrong. So please provide your sources for this statement. Where do you get this idea?
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
  11. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    I use almost all of the herbs you listed, but for leaky gut I rely on Miyarisan, a probiotic. It helps the lining of the Intestines.

    Have you tried Liquorice? :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  12. Basilico

    Basilico Florida

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    @ChrisD have you actually done the mannitol test to determine if you have intestinal permeability? If not, my suggestion is to get a legit diagnosis before trying to fix something that may not even be a problem. Leaky gut is definitely a real thing, but it seems to be one of those things that many people assume they must have without actually confirming it with testing.

    I often see L-Glutamine mentioned as one of the best routes for improving leaky gut. You might want to consider bone broth, which is a good source of glutamine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
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  13. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Leaky gut is still quite controversial so saying that this is proven is actually overstating this. This appears to be taken as fact when the "research" "that proves leaky gut is real" is quite loose and extremely theoretical. What is known is that coeliac disease (which is real and well evidenced) affects only a small a fraction of the people who think they have a gluten problem and the rest is not based on diagnosis but more on lifestyle blogs and misleading media articles and feeling a bit windy and bloated.

    The gut biome affect on health is similarly very top line in terms of research.

    Given this, it seems bizarre to argue over something that may yet turn out to be fantasy? There doesn't appear to be much in the way of compelling real hard science yet (I have read the research so please don't bombard me with top line theoretical research abstracts with musings .....unless there is a paper I have missed that shows a treatment with clinical trial evidence that involve human beings.

    I fully understand the need to do something, but agree with @Basilico there is no point "treating" something that may not be a problem. Especially if the more straightforward things you can do haven't been tackled first.

    My suggestion as ever is to try rebalancing your diet in terms of main food groups first before getting too into the crazy world of "healing my gut". change one thing at a time and wait 8 weeks to see the result of the change you have made before doing the next thing. Having a balanced diverse nutrient dense diet is clearly evidenced so this is what we should try and maintain if we can.
     
  14. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Hello arewenearlythereyet -

    If you do a search on intestinal permeability at pubmed you will get almost 13,000 papers on it. Do you really believe that all 13,000 papers are somehow wrong or bad science?

    Then if you add to that the fact that functional medicine doctors (FMD) are having profound results treating the causes of leaky gut in there patients, you have both the science and practical real life results.

    At least that is what FMD are saying and I don't think they are deluding themselves or lying.

    I appreciate your view and it sounds like you are very passionate about it, however I believe you are mistaken about leaky gut. Even if you just take the human studies, there's is over 6,000 papers on just those.

    That info and my experience, as well as many others with bacterial die off symptoms, which are a worsening of flu-like symptoms in cfs, from treating a bacterial overgrowth in the gut.

    Has lead me to believe a leaky gut is very real and a source of immune system activation from LPS and symptoms.

    Jim
     
  15. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    The term leaky gut as a common problem and reason for all ills and that we can change it even if it exists is what I find unproven. I understand intestinal permeability, and this does exist. however, I do not belive there is sufficient compelling evidence to show that "leaky gut" as some like to call it is a phenomenon found outside of a very very small proportion of people.

    Volume of research papers is not in itself a reason to believe that the evidence is compelling as I think the BPS crew have proven.

    I am not particularly passionate about the subject, although I recognise others are. However this is my field of work and has been for 25 years, so I have spent many many work hours pouring over a lot of nutritional and digestion papers/ researching so I am very familiar with the subject ( it's work for me). As I see it, although interesting, we are not at a point where anybody really knows the context to how prevalent this so called condition is, what treatment would work, even if leaky gut is a real problem in the first place. The only real solution involves taking out whole food groups from your diet which should be our very last resort (as for coeliacs).

    My point is ....why tackle something very untreatable and that has very limited evidence as far as its prevalence when there are far easier and more straightforward things to try (like reducing refined carbs, dealing with vitamin and mineral deficiencies and reducing portion sizes). the body of evidence showing that our natural diet should be ominviorous and diverse with all the food groups in it is overwhelming.

    The consumer trend data also shows that in western populations, people's portion sizes have increased and that most people overeat calories vs the calories they burn. There is also a lack of micro nutrition in western diets where cheap food production is centered around bad fats and highly refined carbohydrates rather than the nutrient dense foods we should be eating. Most people are eating more than the recommended daily intake of carbohydrates and fat and are not eating enough fresh fruit and vegetables whole grains and good quality meat and fish. Alongside this are consumer trends showing growing interest in free from foods (particularly gluten and dairy free) despite the majority of consumers not having a medically diagnosed condition. Of these people, when surveyed, most report "gas and bloating" and lack of energy in the afternoon being their main symptoms of concern. I would suggest that the former trends have something to do with these symptoms rather than leaky gut or food intolerances. Simply reducing CHO intake will solve a lot of the problems and this is mainly to do with how much starch and sugar is consumed and very little to do with gluten or dairy proteins etc.

    The micro biome is another interesting area of study but as yet we don't know very much about it to make an informed decision, other than it exists and plays an important role in digestion. if you have a lot of gas and bloating, perhaps reducing the main food source (sugar) for yeasts and bacteria to live upon might help. But that is supposition.

    It is a matter of balance rather than extremes and trying the easy and simple things first before jumping into the unknown and complicated. This seems sensible to me. That is all I'm saying.
     
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  16. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    oooooh . . . how about Za'atar spice with grilled halloumi cheese and tomatoes . . . olive oil . . . crispy bread :thumbsup:
     
  17. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    @arewenearlythereyet - I think you make many good points regarding a clean, low carb, high nutrient, more moderate portion sized diet and I agree with most of them.

    However, I was doing that for 10 years and made very little gains in my health. In the last 4-5 months by going low carb, but still eating plenty of fruits and veggies and treating severe dysbiosis, as determined through testing.

    I have significantly relieved many of my symptoms. One of the biggest is my flu-like symptoms, they have dramatically lessened. I have more energy, more piece of mind, less anxiety, and less brain fog, just in the last 4-5 months.

    It's like they say, "if it works don't fix it".;) Two courses of rifaximin and antibiotic herbs have lowered my bacterial load in my gut and with that, lowered my symptoms. In fact as I write this I have a cold. For the last 10-15 years every cold or flu would put me in bed for at least 5-7 days or longer.

    This is day 4 of this cold and not only have I not been in bed, I haven't even taken a nap! I also use to think leaky gut was complete nonsense. Over the years, through researching and trying many different protocols, I have changed my view completely.

    While I understand your position, my view is very different given the symptom relief I have gotten and continue to get from treating dysbiosis and leaky gut. We have probably read much of the same research and have come away with very different information.:) Like I said, I appreciate your view, it sounds like it's been years in the making, just as mine has been.

    Jim
     
  18. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4231515/

    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

    There is evidence that a leaky gut is a factor in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) since endotoxin levels in CFS patients (as measured by increased IgM and IgA serum levels against LPS) are elevated. A case study showed a complete remission of CFS symptoms after being put on a leaky gut diet (low carbohydrate, gluten and milk free), in conjunction with intravenous immunoglobulins (IVIGs) and NAIOs (natural anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidative substances, namely N-acetyl-cysteine, glutamine and zinc, among others) which resulted in normalization of IgM and IgA levels and normalization of LPS translocation[205]. Presumably this was due to a tightening of the intestinal barrier. In a follow up study, CFS patients followed only the leaky gut diet and took NAIOs without the addition of IVIGs, and had similar results, meaning that these two therapies alone tightened leaky TJs in the gut, reducing translocation of endotoxin into the bloodstream[206].
     
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Interesting. I have increasingly elevated pain levels, but also elevated ammonia. There are studies that suggest glutamine lowers ammonia, but also that it increases ammonia.

    This study is particularly perplexing, at least for Mr. Super Brain Fog, as it suggests (I think) that cerebral ammonia is detoxified primarily during the conversion of glutamate to glutamine. But then...

    "Much of the newly synthesized glutamine is subsequently metabolized in mitochondria by phosphate-activated glutaminase, yielding glutamate and ammonia. In this manner, glutamine (the Trojan horse) is transported in excess from the cytoplasm to mitochondria serving as a carrier of ammonia."

    But it then proposes that this glutamine-derived ammonia interferes with mitochondrial function.

    Call me clueless. @Hip, @alicec, @Valentijn ...your interpretation(s) would be much appreciated.
     
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  20. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    Contents of the intestine passing into the bloodstream? I have never understood how this could be true.............unless of course someone had a bad injury. No.........never believed it.........we'd all be running around with sepsis. I do believe however that intestinal gases can permeate the intestinal wall.
     

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