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Wessley and White at work again

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Im not reading the article as Im not in the mood to get too pissed off... knowing what its about and who wrote it is bad enough. Anyway.. reading a few of fellow suffers comments based on it

Our results show that CFS is more common amongst the physically inactive

I cant believe they are still pushing that we are lazy kind of thing still... its a tactful way of making us sound as if we are lazy.

DOH!.. if we were running about everywhere and physically active, well we wouldnt be diagnosed with CFS in the first place. It's as stupid as someone pointing out those with a headache had pain in their head
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Damn, I guess 25 miles a day on a mountain bike at 7000-8500 feet wasn't enough.

Well, I was probably in the top 1% in terms of exercise ability, and after I got sick I was in the bottom 1% (Bicycle test with EKG and VO2 gas analysis).

Maybe TOO MUCH exercise is a risk factor as well? I met so many people who were previously highly active. Now I am told not to exercise other than walking (this comes from several specialists).

I am young, and it's quite funny I met so many really bright, good looking, and highly motivated people in my age range that are ill. I know people report stress causing their onset, but I had no stressors in my life at the time. Life was great until December 7, 2008.

What disease are they looking at? I think they are confusing depression with CFS and they must have grabbed the wrong cohort.

I'll second your post. What disease are they looking at? Obviously one which has been created by the CDC which dont represent a huge group of us. Only the very athletic ones in my family get it, (my cousin who got it had schlourship at the Institute of Sport .. I myself used to be fit and active.. even did a 100Km Marathon while in remission)
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
If only GPs had the "tools" instead of being indoctrinated by the Psyches over decades to ignore what is perfectly obvious to some GPs of this illness - sure aint depression. Those b..... Psyches.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
What they were testing were simultaneous/near simultaneous factors

I don't have time to read this thread at the moment unfortunately.

But as I just read the full paper, I thought I'd post an observation:

The risk factors were generally measured simultaneously or what they considered as good as simultaneously (one year before). People who had CFS a year before weren't excluded and they basically assumed things didn't change for the year.

So when they talk about risk factors e.g.
"Our results show that CFS is more common amongst the physically inactive, those with social difficulties and with poor social support, and ethnic minorities, especially in the Pakistani group studied, and that they are silently suffering",
they actually mean at the same time. Figure 1 gives you an idea what I'm talking about.

So, what a surprise, people with CFS are more physically inactive than average.

One has to wonder whether other factors might also have been influenced by being ill e.g. if you're ill, you might feel more conscious of the support around you and/or people indeed may be less supportive than normal as you don't seem to be pulling your weight.

The definition of CFS is very dubious but might need to leave that for a while.
 

mellster

Marco
Messages
805
Location
San Francisco
I do believe that it hits more physically active people as no matter how you spin it, exercise, albeit crucial for well-being overall, is a short-term stressor for the body. I also think physically active people have a harder time letting go (as evidenced by myself) and cause a faster spiraling onset. Longer term I think switching to low impact exercise and leading an overall calming lifestyle is the only way to go, maybe after a long time of stabilization one can attempt ramping up again. I think Wessley is 100% wrong on the target group.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Reviewers' comments

I like to read the pre-publication history of papers when I can (one can only do this with some journals) for various reasons e.g.

(i) it helps me understand it a bit more (sometimes issues are spelt out a bit more than the paper which can sometimes be dense, at least to me)

(ii) I like to see what individuals say - one can often get an idea of individual researchers' views from the correspondence; also I've noticed a few "fawning" reviews in my time

(iii) I like to see how the whole process works.

Etc.

Anyway, this paper has a very interesting contrast in the reviews.

This paper shows the variation in reviews:

Reviewer's Report: Stefan Kempke 01 Dec 2010 http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/1291803694907266_comment.pdf (makes some points but not a particularly detailed review in comparison to reviewer #2 anyway)

Reviewer's Report: Roumiana Boneva 03 Dec 2010 http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/2230444944918737_comment.pdf (a detailed review)

Reviewer's Report Jos W.M. van der Meer 12 Dec 2010 http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/4432993044955950_comment.pdf (fawning review with no substantial points - see below)

Reviewer's Report Athula Sumathipala 13 Dec 2010 http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/1107497154958453_comment.pdf (not a single point! - see below)

--------
This is a medical doctor who is part of the Nijmegen team - a big CBT fan. He was one of the two authors of "XMRV and CFS the sad end of a story" in the Lancet recently, amongst other things:

Reviewer's report

Title: Chronic fatigue syndrome in an ethnically diverse population: the influence
of psychosocial adversity & physical inactivity

Version: 1 Date: 12 December 2010

Reviewer: Jos W.M. van der Meer

Reviewer's report:

- The question is well defined.

- Methods are appropriate an well described.

- The data are sound.

- The paper adheres to relevant standards.

- The discussion is well balanced and well supported by data, as are the conclusions.

- Abstract: see below

This is a well-written paper which I enjoyed reading.

There are 4 minor essential minor revisions.

1. The setting in which the survey was done remains unclear to a non-UK
readership. I suppose it regards an urban population. It would not harm even to
tell where the survey has been done more precisely.

2. The abstract does not even make clear in which country the survey was done

3. The survey was done nearly 10 years ago (at least that was what I
understood). Please inform the readership why it was not published earlier.

4. What is DIY (p10)?

Quality of written English: Acceptable

Statistical review: Yes, but I do not feel adequately qualified to assess the
statistics.

Declaration of competing interests:
I declare that I have no competing interests

Reviewer 4 doesn't say a single thing - I've never seen this before.
Reviewer's report
Title: Chronic fatigue syndrome in an ethnically diverse population: the influence
of psychosocial adversity & physical inactivity
Version: 1 Date: 13 December 2010
Reviewer: Athula Sumathipala
Reviewer's report:
When assessing the work, please consider the following seven points:
1. Is the question posed by the authors new and well defined? YES
2. Are the methods appropriate and well described, and are sufficient details
provided to replicate the work? YES
3. Are the data sound and well controlled? Not applicable
4. Does the manuscript adhere to the relevant standards for reporting and data
deposition?
5. Are the discussion and conclusions well balanced and adequately supported
by the data? YES
6. Do the title and abstract accurately convey what has been found? YES
7. Is the writing acceptable? YES
Please make your review as constructive and detailed as possible in your
comments so that authors have the opportunity to overcome any serious
deficiencies that you find and please also divide your comments into the following
categories:
- Discretionary Revisions (which are recommendations for improvement but
which the author can choose to ignore) None
- Minor Essential Revisions (such as missing labels on figures, or the wrong use
of a term, which the author can be trusted to correct) None
- Major Compulsory Revisions (which the author must respond to before a
decision on publication can be reached) None
Quality of written English: Acceptable
Statistical review: Yes, but I do not feel adequately qualified to assess the
statistics.
Declaration of competing interests:
I declare that I have no competing interests

I just looked them up in PubMed - they are a psychiatrist or psychologist from Sri Lanka

Reducing the scarcity in mental health research from low and middle income countries: a success story from Sri Lanka.
Siriwardhana C, Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Samaraweera S, Abeysinghe N, Prince M, Hotopf M.
Int Rev Psychiatry. 2011;23(1):77-83.
PMID: 21338302 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Genetic and environmental contributions to the overlap between psychological, fatigue and somatic symptoms: a twin study in Sri Lanka.
Ball HA, Siribaddana SH, Sumathipala A, Kovas Y, Glozier N, Rijsdijk F, McGuffin P, Hotopf M.
Twin Res Hum Genet. 2011 Feb;14(1):53-63.
PMID: 21314256 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Aetiology of fatigue in Sri Lanka and its overlap with depression.
Ball HA, Sumathipala A, Siribaddana SH, Kovas Y, Glozier N, McGuffin P, Hotopf M.
Br J Psychiatry. 2010 Aug;197(2):106-13.
PMID: 20679262 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Understanding of research: a Sri Lankan perspective.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Hewage S, Lekamwattage M, Athukorale M, Siriwardhana C, Munasinghe K, Sumathipala K, Murray J, Prince M.
BMC Med Ethics. 2010 Apr 27;11:7.
PMID: 20423516 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Prevalence of suicidal ideation in Sri Lanka.
Samaraweera S, Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Sivayogan S, Bhugra D.
Crisis. 2010;31(1):30-5.
PMID: 20197255 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Environmental exposures and their genetic or environmental contribution to depression and fatigue: a twin study in Sri Lanka.
Ball HA, Siribaddana SH, Sumathipala A, Kovas Y, Glozier N, McGuffin P, Hotopf M.
BMC Psychiatry. 2010 Feb 2;10:13.
PMID: 20122265 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Genetic and environmental contributions to depression in Sri Lanka.
Ball HA, Sumathipala A, Siribaddana SH, Kovas Y, Glozier N, McGuffin P, Hotopf M.
Br J Psychiatry. 2009 Dec;195(6):504-9.
PMID: 19949199 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Mental health and psychosocial support in crisis and conflict: report of the Mental Health Working Group.
Allden K, Jones L, Weissbecker I, Wessells M, Bolton P, Betancourt TS, Hijazi Z, Galappatti A, Yamout R, Patel P, Sumathipala A.
Prehosp Disaster Med. 2009 Jul-Aug;24 Suppl 2:s217-27.
PMID: 19806544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Epidemiology and symptomatology of depression in Sri Lanka: a cross-sectional population-based survey in Colombo District.
Ball HA, Siribaddana SH, Kovas Y, Glozier N, McGuffin P, Sumathipala A, Hotopf M.
J Affect Disord. 2010 Jun;123(1-3):188-96. Epub 2009 Sep 16.
PMID: 19762085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Cognitive-behavioural therapy v. structured care for medically unexplained symptoms: randomised controlled trial.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Abeysingha MR, De Silva P, Dewey M, Prince M, Mann AH.
Br J Psychiatry. 2008 Jul;193(1):51-9.
PMID: 18700219 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Understanding the explanatory model of the patient on their medically unexplained symptoms and its implication on treatment development research: a Sri Lanka Study.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Hewege S, Sumathipala K, Prince M, Mann A.
BMC Psychiatry. 2008 Jul 8;8:54.
PMID: 18611253 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Colombo Twin and Singleton Study (CoTASS): a description of a population based twin study of mental disorders in Sri Lanka.
Siribaddana SH, Ball HA, Hewage SN, Glozier N, Kovas Y, Dayaratne D, Sumathipala A, McGuffin P, Hotopf M.
BMC Psychiatry. 2008 Jun 27;8:49.
PMID: 18588676 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Informed consent in Sri Lanka: a survey among ethics committee members.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Hewage S, Lekamwattage M, Athukorale M, Siriwardhana C, Murray J, Prince M.
BMC Med Ethics. 2008 May 20;9:10.
PMID: 18489793 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Completed suicide among Sinhalese in Sri Lanka: a psychological autopsy study.
Samaraweera S, Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Sivayogan S, Bhugra D.
Suicide Life Threat Behav. 2008 Apr;38(2):221-8.
PMID: 18444779 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Ethics Review Committee approval and informed consent: an analysis of biomedical publications originating from Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Hewege S, Lekamwattage M, Athukorale M, Siriwardhana C, Murray J, Prince M.
BMC Med Ethics. 2008 Feb 11;9:3.
PMID: 18267015 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

What is the evidence for the efficacy of treatments for somatoform disorders? A critical review of previous intervention studies.
Sumathipala A.
Psychosom Med. 2007 Dec;69(9):889-900. Review.
PMID: 18040100 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free Article

Update from Sri Lankan Twin Registry: establishment of a population-based twin register and ongoing project on common mental disorders, alcohol abuse and suicidal ideations.
Siribaddana SH, Siriwardane WD, Hewage SN, Athukorale AD, Sumathipala A, Hotopf M.
Twin Res Hum Genet. 2006 Dec;9(6):868-74.
PMID: 17254423 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Bioethics in Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A.
East Mediterr Health J. 2006;12 Suppl 1:S73-9.
PMID: 17037692 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Management of dead bodies as a component of psychosocial interventions after the tsunami: a view from Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Perera C.
Int Rev Psychiatry. 2006 Jun;18(3):249-57.
PMID: 16753662 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Research and clinical ethics after the tsunami: Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S.
Lancet. 2005 Oct 22-28;366(9495):1418-20. No abstract available.
PMID: 16243077 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Revisiting "freely given informed consent" in relation to the developing world: role of an ombudsman.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S.
Am J Bioeth. 2004 Summer;4(3):W1-7.
PMID: 16192114 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Under-representation of developing countries in the research literature: ethical issues arising from a survey of five leading medical journals.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Patel V.
BMC Med Ethics. 2004 Oct 4;5:E5.
PMID: 15461820 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article

Do patients volunteer their life weariness and suicidal ideations? A Sri Lankan study.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Samaraweera SD.
Crisis. 2004;25(3):103-7.
PMID: 15387236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Qualitative research.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, De Silva N.
Ceylon Med J. 2003 Dec;48(4):136-9. No abstract available.
PMID: 15125407 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Culture-bound syndromes: the story of dhat syndrome.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana SH, Bhugra D.
Br J Psychiatry. 2004 Mar;184:200-9. Review.
PMID: 14990517 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free Article

Capacity building through multi-disciplinary research: a report from Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, Samaraweera S, Dayaratne DA.
Br J Psychiatry. 2003 Nov;183:457-8. No abstract available.
PMID: 14594923 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free Article

Challenges in recruiting older twins for the Sri Lankan twin registry.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana SH, Abeysingha NM, De Silva N, Fernando DJ, Dayaratne DA, De Silva D, Warnasuriya ND, Hotopf M.
Twin Res. 2003 Feb;6(1):67-71.
PMID: 12626231 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Sri Lankan Twin Registry.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S, De Silva N, Fernando D, Abeysingha N, Dayaratne R, De Silva D, Warnasuriya N, Hotopf M.
Twin Res. 2002 Oct;5(5):424-6. Review.
PMID: 12537869 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Psychological distress among university students.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana S.
Ceylon Med J. 2002 Jun;47(2):74-5. No abstract available.
PMID: 12140890 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Feasibility of using different approaches for recruiting younger twins to establish a population based twin register in Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Siribaddana SH, De Silva N, Abeysingha NM, Sivayogam S, Fernando DJ.
Twin Res. 2001 Dec;4(6):459-63.
PMID: 11780938 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Cross-cultural adaptation and preliminary validation of a zygosity determination questionnaire for twins in Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, De Silva N, Siribaddana SH, Abeysingha MR, Fernando DJ.
Twin Res. 2000 Dec;3(4):205-12.
PMID: 11463140 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Establishing a twin register in Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Fernando DJ, Siribaddana SH, Abeysingha MR, Jayasekare RW, Dissanayake VH, De Silva N.
Twin Res. 2000 Dec;3(4):202-4.
PMID: 11463139 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

International representation in psychiatric literature: survey of six leading journals.
Patel V, Sumathipala A.
Br J Psychiatry. 2001 May;178:406-9.
PMID: 11331553 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free Article

Randomized controlled trial of cognitive behaviour therapy for repeated consultations for medically unexplained complaints: a feasibility study in Sri Lanka.
Sumathipala A, Hewege S, Hanwella R, Mann AH.
Psychol Med. 2000 Jul;30(4):747-57.
PMID: 11037083 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Methods used for suicide vary between regions in the developing world.
Patel V, Sumathipala A.
BMJ. 1999 Jan 23;318(7178):259. No abstract available.
PMID: 9915744 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free PMC Article
 

Mya Symons

Mya Symons
Messages
1,029
Location
Washington
What happened to "I haven't been involved in CFS research for years?" Didn't he just say that?

Why is it that the cfs psych theory people always see the "egg coming before the chicken?". They can't see that perhaps it is the illnesses itself (this would be the chicken :Retro smile:) that causes the "poor economic status" and "the lack of adequate housing" and the "lack of exercise", etc.
 

Desdinova

Senior Member
Messages
276
Location
USA
What happened to "I haven't been involved in CFS research for years?" Didn't he just say that?
Hum must be those 100 or less individuals who are out to get him. Probably stealing his identity and submitting all the papers and studies in an effort to ruin his good name.

On another note I often wonder what would happen if he himself were to somehow develop or come down with real ME/CFS. Wonder where he would go for help. Certainly not to your mainstream outlets. Though it would be ironically funny to see him besieged by Doctors quoting and waving papers and studies with his name on them.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Boneva appears to be from CDC's CFS unit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Boneva[au] chronic fatigue, but made some surprisingly good points

Does the publishing journal allow them to pick their own reviewers?
Most (all?) journals list their general policies with regard to reviewers. Some have what to me seem like strange policies: you can suggest reviewers (and some even let you say you don't want particular people to review a paper).

This journal doesn't seem to have any specific policy along those lines:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/bmcmed/ifora/

Publication and peer review processes

Submitted manuscripts will be sent to peer reviewers, unless they are either out of scope or below threshold for the journal, or the presentation or written English is of an unacceptably low standard. They will generally be reviewed by two experts with the aim of reaching a first decision as soon as possible. A third reviewer, generally one of the journal's advisers, will be used where necessary. Statistical reviewers are also used where required (for a full list of our statistical advisers, please click here). In addition, advice on whether the article is of sufficient significance for publication in BMC Medicine will generally be obtained from a member of the Editorial Board or a researcher of equivalent standing. Reviewers are asked to declare any competing interests and have to agree to open peer review, which works on two levels: the authors receive the signed report and, if the manuscript is published, the same report is available to the readers. The pre-publication history (initial submission, reviews and revisions - see, for example, pre-publication history) is posted on the web with the published article.

Reviewers are asked whether the manuscript is scientifically sound and whether it is of sufficient significance for publication in BMC Medicine. They are told that should the work be sound but of limited significance, the authors will be given the option of publication without further review in one of the BMC subject-specific journals. In cases where there is strong disagreement either among peer reviewers or between the authors and peer reviewers, advice is sought from a member of the journal's Editorial Board. The journal allows a maximum of two revisions of any manuscript. All appeals should be directed to the Medical Editor. The ultimate responsibility for editorial decisions lies with the Editor-in-Chief.

Once an article is accepted, it is published in BMC Medicine immediately as a provisional PDF file. The paper will subsequently be published in both fully browseable web form, and as a formatted PDF. The article will then be available through BMC Medicine, BioMed Central and PubMed Central, and will also be included in PubMed.

Authors will be able to check the progress of their paper through the submission system at any time by logging into My BioMed Central, their personalized section of the site.
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
I'd love to ask them what they know about ME - nothing it seems from all their pronouncements. If so wide off off the mark here can any work of theirs be trusted.
 

Annikki

Senior Member
Messages
146
I love how Wessely capitalizes on ideas like Hysteria, which was proven to be just PTSD by none other than Freud himself. Judith Herman MD wrote a book about trauma; political and domestic violence 20 years ago and this book gives us some of the history of psychology which gets missed. Freud, before he became famous, worked with Joseph Breuer to find a scientific explanation for hysteria.
Understand, back in those days, science was trying to cleave itself from religion and hysteria was another puzzle for science to solve so that the power of the clergy would give way to "men of reason." What Breuer and Freud found (and Janet independently) unintentionally was that those so-called hysterics they worked with all had histories of serious abuse. Freud knew at the time what this meant- since a strange man talking at length with a woman was a novel event at the time, psychoanalysis became the context where the epidemic of sexual violence was first seeing the light of day.
The problem is that the pressure for Freud to NOT stand by his findings, which he compiled in the text "Aetiology of Hysteria" led Freud to abandon his theory. From this point on he'd insist instead that children only went through a phase where they had sexual desire for their parents. That's a good way for Freud to cower away from the results of his own research and to make the detritus of sexual abuse get mistaken for something else.

Yes, so Wessely's ideas are debunked by the founder of his own science- hysteria is PTSD. This also shows too that the yellow streak in his profession goes back to its roots.

You can read some of that book here (just type 'hysteria" in the search box and it will find the section for you):

http://books.google.com/books?id=3c...&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
By the way, 16/4,281 = 0.37%...
Not sure if you are saying the calculation was incorrect or not? It wasn't trying to use the 0.235% for the total but 0.235/1.607 to give the percentage of the CFS-like group one might expect to be left as CFS cases after exclusions.