Vitamin C allergy - what now?

[caledonia]

I've actually been having trouble tolerating vitamin C lately too, although with different symptoms. It causes me to crash - flu like aching, extra fatigue, etc.

I've been trying various forms of vitamin C other than ascorbic acid (the most common vitamin C is made from corn).

Ecological formulas (made from tapioca)
ascorbyl palmitate - (fat soluble) closest thing to sago palm - my doc suggested this
Garden of Life - made from vegetables, berries, etc.

There are other forms - sodium ascorbate, magnesium ascorbate. I'm not sure if these are corn based or not.

 

[whodathunkit]

Rose hip didn't work. Guess it means I'm done with C.

Did you try the magnesium ascorbate form? If I were you I would not give up on this crucial vitamin yet. I'd keep researching different forms of it and trying them. But that's your choice. And of course the choice of your wallet.

Thanks @whodathunkit So maybe I should try a low dose of Lithium. Is it the ororate form?

I use orotate dissolved in water so that it makes a concentrated solution, then I put some drops of that concentrate into my drinking water, so I basically get a trace of lithium every time I drink water. I couldn't really tell you the dose I get every day, however. I just know it's quite small, and that even 5mg/day gave me thyroid symptoms, so I need to keep my lithium dose small.

 

[Ninan]

Thanks @Freddd I'll try switching to metafolin. I've never noticed any difference between the three forms, @alicec

What I wonder is: Why is C so crucial for B12? I haven't found the connection. It says C helps absorbation of folate in the gut but I take folate sublingually. How come I've needed so much, and more over time? And why this connection where lack of C, Zn, Mg can be compensated with more folate? (Not now, obviously.) Any ideas? Am I lacking something? Something that compromizes uptake of folate? Something else?

If this has to do with folate uptake then maybe there is another solution?

 

[whodathunkit]

Anyone else recognizes this?: If I take too little C (less than 5 grams now) I need much more folate for methylation to work. Otherwise it wears off in hours (that's where I am now). It's the same if I take too little magnesium or too little zink. I need lots and lots of all of them. Is this a normal connection or is there some reason for this that I don't see? An x-factor would be nice here.

Boy, I just noticed this. I read it before but it got by me.

5g/day is quite a big dose of C. I usually don't take that much unless I'm doing an intense anti-infection protocol like I did after my dental surgery a couple years ago.

Stepping down from really large doses of C taken over a long amoutn of time can sometimes cause rebound scurvy or adverse reactions. How much were you taking to begin with?

What I wonder is: Why is C so crucial for B12?

To my knowldege, it isn't crucial for B12 specifically. It's just crucial, period. It's an important vitamin involved in many physiological functions including immunity, cellular repair, etc.

I could be wrong about B12, but that's my understanding. It could be that the problems you're attributing to B12 and vitamin C are actually problems with something else, and you're just not pinpointing the cause right. Happens to us all at one time or another. Or maybe I'm wrong about that, too. LOL Just food for thought.

How come I've needed so much, and more over time? And why this connection where lack of C, Zn, Mg can be compensated with more folate?

That happens with folate. Which, folinic and folate are not the same thing so it matters which kind you take.

My top dose of folate was 40mg/day for a while. After I healed for a while I have been able to step down the dose. Point being, it can go high for some people.

Your body's processes need those other minerals and vitamins to help them work. When you increase your metabolism in some way (like with methylation), you may need extra of them, particularly if you are deficient and running on empty in the first place. I had to supplement high-dose magnesium for a couple of years, for example. I actually did this to help myself out of deficiency before I started folate and B12, because after some research I figured out I needed it.

 

[Ninan]

Boy, I just noticed this. I read it before but it got by me.

5g/day is quite a big dose of C. I usually don't take that much unless I'm doing an intense anti-infection protocol like I did after my dental surgery a couple years ago.

Stepping down from really large doses of C taken over a long amoutn of time can sometimes cause rebound scurvy or adverse reactions. How much were you taking to begin with?


To my knowldege, it isn't crucial for B12 specifically. It's just crucial, period. It's an important vitamin involved in many physiological functions including immunity, cellular repair, etc.

I could be wrong about B12, but that's my understanding. It could be that the problems you're attributing to B12 and vitamin C are actually problems with something else, and you're just not pinpointing the cause right. Happens to us all at one time or another. Or maybe I'm wrong about that, too. LOL Just food for thought.


That happens with folate. Which, folinic and folate are not the same thing so it matters which kind you take.

My top dose of folate was 40mg/day for a while. After I healed for a while I have been able to step down the dose. Point being, it can go high for some people.

Your body's processes need those other minerals and vitamins to help them work. When you increase your metabolism in some way (like with methylation), you may need extra of them, particularly if you are deficient and running on empty in the first place. I had to supplement high-dose magnesium for a couple of years, for example. I actually did this to help myself out of deficiency before I started folate and B12, because after some research I figured out I needed it.

I started with no C, then went up over time.

I'm quite certain about B12, that's what gives me energy, with the right cofactors. Or rather, given the right amount if B12 etc, folate gives me energy. It's very clear that's the problem, the effect is gone.

So maybe I should try to increase folate even more. I'll switch to metafolin and try. Thanks.

 

[whodathunkit]

I started with no C, then went up over time.

What was your top dose? If you "cut back" to 5mg then it must have been kind of high. Rebound problems from a high dose are a possibility here, IMO.

I'm quite certain about B12, that's what gives me energy, with the right cofactors. Or rather, given the right amount if B12 etc, folate gives me energy. It's very clear that's the problem, the effect is gone.

My experience has been that I need A LOT of B12 relative to whatever folate I'm taking. So if you increase folate, please consider upping your B12 proportionately. I don't think there's ever been a definitive ratio established of the two, however. Personally, I go on symptoms. Whatever it takes to get me out of discomfort is what I take. For at least a whole year, probably more, I injected 5mg/day of mB12. Loved it. Now I inject about 1/3mg/day. Seems to do me fine and is better on my wallet, for sure.

Plus I need B12 every day.

I have MTRR mutations so I think this plays into my outsize need for B12 to feel my best. If you have MTRR it could be a factor for you, as well.

 

[alicec]

What I wonder is: Why is C so crucial for B12? I haven't found the connection. It says C helps absorbation of folate in the gut but I take folate sublingually. How come I've needed so much, and more over time? And why this connection where lack of C, Zn, Mg can be compensated with more folate? (Not now, obviously.) Any ideas? Am I lacking something? Something that compromizes uptake of folate? Something else?

Folate is needed for B12 to work properly and maybe something is going wrong with metabolic pathways using folate, rather than folate uptake as such. Maybe other cofactors used in these pathways have slowly been depleted over time. Maybe the things that help for at least a time are able to temporarily boost these pathways but then the effects of the real missing ingredient kicks in and everything stops again. Maybe there are several missing ingredients and repleting one will just show up another that has become depleted.

I'm sure I'm struggling with the same type of phenomenon as you though mine manifests a bit differently. Adding back boron may be be just the beginning of the journey for me.

I'd certainly try methylfolate if I were you - and maybe from there think about other things that may have become depleted/unbalanced.

 

[brenda]

I take camu camu for vitamin c as ascorbic acid upsets me. I put it in my morning smoothie, about half a teaspoon but the amount of but c is not high.

 

[Ninan]

Folate is needed for B12 to work properly and maybe something is going wrong with metabolic pathways using folate, rather than folate uptake as such. Maybe other cofactors used in these pathways have slowly been depleted over time.

That makes sense. Anyone has any idea of what might be missing? Folate needs other B's and I take B complex every day. Lithium? Boron?

 

[Ninan]

I tried taking more folinic acid (that's what I have at home, waiting for metylfolate, come on DHL) and noticed the pressure over my chest - which is a typical need more folate-symptom for me - increased. Could have been a coincidence but what if it's not? Thinking about it I can't remember if I had these problems with needing a lot of C when I took methyl folate, or not. I do remember having them last summer when I took folic acid.

Could it be that a large and constantly growing dose of C is crucial for folic and folinic acid to have effect and that I won't have the same need for C with methyl folate? I'll cut out all folinic acid and food high in folic acid and try taking only methyl folate. Thanks for the tip about folinic acid, @Freddd

 

[Ninan]

Or I have this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22527288/

And vit C allergy. How unlucky can someone be? My MTHFR test said normal MTHFR c.677 C/C (p. 222) and heterozygous polymorphism MTHFR c 1298 A/C (p.429). Doesn't make much sense to me. @caledonia ?

But then would folate without C make the folate deficiency symptoms worse? Folinic acid seemed to and I took some of the metafolin I had left and it seems it made me feel even worse. Will it always or was it just because I've taken so much folinic acid?

This doesn't look very good, does it?

Then again, some years ago I had effect from only B12 without extra folate or C. But I was much better back then. Maybe I need folate now but can't use it without lots of C.

@Freddd Do you know anything about this? Does it make sense?

 

[Wayne]

Hi @Ninan,

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I have very little understanding of many of the topics being discussed on this thread, but I can share something simple that works well for me. I put sodium ascorbate in my daily coffee enemas, and have found it to be an ideal way for my body to utilize Vit. C.

I've long heard that when people get so debilitated to the point where they can barely take in nourishment from normal eating, that rectal implantation of various kinds of herbs, juices (i.e. wheatgrass), supplements, etc. become a lifeline for the body, because it can then more readily absorb critical elements

I also have a daily ritual of holding vitamin C in my mouth for several minutes (before slowly swallowing it). I have ongoing concerns about possible focal infections from past dental work, which can quickly deplete Vitamin C reserves in the gums, leading to localized scurvy. By putting 1-2 grams of sodium ascorbate in my mouth, along with several drops of DMSO, I feel I'm keeping my Vit. C levels up, and the effects of any oral infections down.

I experience a noticeable lift after both rectal and oral Vit. C supplementation, and feel that for some reason, these are easier ways for me body to use it. I supplement orally as well, but I notice my body has somewhat of an aversion to taking very much orally.

I sincerely hope you can find a good solution for yourself.

Best, Wayne​

 

[alicec]

This doesn't look very good, does it?

Well I wouldn't be cutting my throat on the basis of that abstract.

It is saying that vit C at dietary levels promotes the uptake of methyl folate plus polyglutamate tail (as found in foods) into red blood cells. Since the polyglutamate tail is removed in the gut in order for the folate to be absorbed, it seems likely that vit C plays a role here. Synthetic folic acid has no polyglutamate tail so wouldn't show this effect, as indeed the study shows.

As for the association of this effect with various snps, first I'd like to know they did the statistics correctly to know that the effect is real. Even if it is, MTHFR A1298C, even in homozygous form, has a marginal effect on enzyme activity so it is hard to imagine anything other than a minor effect on the associated activity.

I think the study has little relevance for your situation. You are dealing with high dose vit C and high dose methylfolate (without polyglutamate tail) supplementation.which would have very different dynamics.

Just take as much vit C as you can now tolerate and try the methylfolate when it arrives. Then reassess.

Anyone has any idea of what might be missing? Folate needs other B's and I take B complex every day. Lithium? Boron?

It could be any of those things, maybe other minerals. Rather than a particular B vitamin, maybe it is the relative amounts. You might need to take these things apart and try one by one.

I have been taking a trace mineral preparation for years and it never occurred to me that boron (or any of the other minerals) could become limiting until I was forced to rethink. Adding boron in large amounts has certainly made the DQ supplements start working again for me, but I intend to try other minerals as well (just waiting for an order to arrive) and mess around more with B vitamins.

@Freddd talks about some of this on the refeeding thread.

 

[Freddd]

I have been taking a trace mineral preparation for years and it never occurred to me that boron (or any of the other minerals) could become limiting until I was forced to rethink. Adding boron in large amounts has certainly made the DQ supplements start working again for me, but I intend to try other minerals as well (just waiting for an order to arrive) and mess around more with B vitamins.

@Freddd talks about some of this on the refeeding thread.

Yes. It's important to remember that the perhaps a half dozen trace minerals each may only have an effect if in the right order, and they all overlap, and many interfere with each other absorption or competes and needs to be taken as a group. I had 400mgs of + potassium for copper and 200mgs + potassium. My doctor agrees that this is a flag for cell formation and needs to be corrected. So there is a clear pattern of diminishing "return", maybe how much is left inactivated?

 

[kangaSue]

Stepping down from really large doses of C taken over a long amoutn of time can sometimes cause rebound scurvy or adverse reactions. How much were you taking to begin with?

Rebound scurvy is only a hypothetical possibility, there are no clinically documented cases reported in the medical literature that I could find, only anecdotal accounts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3875932/
[The consumption of large doses of vitamin C supplements has also been occasionally associated with skin rash, heartburn, nausea, and diarrhea. These are usually the result of the formulation of the vitamin C tablets but may also be caused by excessive consumption of vitamin C in a short period of time. Large doses of vitamin C have been anecdotally associated with vitamin B12 deficiency and systemic conditioning (also known as “rebound scurvy”), conditions that have never been documented clinically [123]. Patients with glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency have also been cautioned against taking vitamin C supplements, due to reports of hemolytic anemia that have also not been substantiated [124]]

 

[South]

fwiw, here's a post by someone who had reactions to vitamin C, but found the solution for her was to fix her low zinc and copper, and to rebalance iron using another mineral (molybdenum).

http://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=305525#i

 

[Ninan]

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful. Good to know C might not be crucial for folate metabolism, @alicec Not cutting my throat any time soon, at least.

New trails: Reactions to vit C could be sensitivity towards oxalates. Reactions to rose hip could be sensitivity towards salicytes. High oxalates can interfere with folate metabolism according to something I read in another forum.

("I just read this recently on Mthfr Support page," Pyroluria we now know is an oxalate issue. when oxalates are high it shuts off methionine synthase wich includesfolate metabolism. (Things that cause oxalate issues: b6 (p5p and pyrodoxal HCL) deficiency, a high oxalate diet and consuming GMO's." There was talk on this page that inability to process oxolates can be traced back to copper dysregulation. Does he have high unbound copper & low caeroplasmin? Building up cp might be the place to start.")

I have a lot of the other signs of high oxalates etc so this is something I'm looking in to now. Maybe in the future I can tolerate some C again.

I took a few grains of lithium ororate yesterday and had the best night in a few days. Better mood and, it seems, a bit more energy. Guess that's more B12 being transported in to my cells? I wonder if it gives me brain fog though. Even though I'm taking only 1/20 of 5 mgs of lithium orotate. I feel a bit too even tempered too, almost as if turned off. Maybe I should lower the dose even more or not take any. Too bad if it helps with B12.

But for now, what do I do? It's been a week since I took my last B12 shot and five days since I haven't had any effect from folate. Brain fog is increasing badly, not sure what is lithium and what is B12 wearing off. I have to use Google translate all the time to write this. The low folate-pressure over my chest seems to be quite constant but stronger when at rest. Should I continue taking B12 or stop it? Take less? (I have Jarrow's sublinguals at home.) Will it help with brain fog and fatigue or will it just sky rocket my need for folate and make those symptoms worse? Or both? Since I can't tolerate C and obviously need it, at least for now, to have effect from folate, should I stop the protocol completely? Input on this much appreciated. @Freddd ?

 

[Ninan]

I wonder if sensitivity to oxalates and/or salicytes can explain some of my CFS symptoms? And the fantastic effect I have from B12, but not until 24 hours after taking it. Detox. I feel much better on liver support too.

@caledonia Have you considered oxalates in connection to your reactions to C?

 

[caledonia]

I wonder if sensitivity to oxalates and/or salicytes can explain some of my CFS symptoms? And the fantastic effect I have from B12, but not until 24 hours after taking it. Detox. I feel much better on liver support too.

@caledonia Have you considered oxalates in connection to your reactions to C?

Not really. I got worse in several areas this past spring after a failed chelation attempt stirred up more metals. I'm just now starting to feel recovered from memory/energy/sleep issues, but I'm still having increased food additive/supplement/chemical sensitivity issues.

It's very clear to me that metals make me worse and clearing metals makes me better, as I have observed this happening a couple of times.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful. Good to know C might not be crucial for folate metabolism, @alicec Not cutting my throat any time soon, at least.

New trails: Reactions to vit C could be sensitivity towards oxalates. Reactions to rose hip could be sensitivity towards salicytes. High oxalates can interfere with folate metabolism according to something I read in another forum.

("I just read this recently on Mthfr Support page," Pyroluria we now know is an oxalate issue. when oxalates are high it shuts off methionine synthase wich includesfolate metabolism. (Things that cause oxalate issues: b6 (p5p and pyrodoxal HCL) deficiency, a high oxalate diet and consuming GMO's." There was talk on this page that inability to process oxolates can be traced back to copper dysregulation. Does he have high unbound copper & low caeroplasmin? Building up cp might be the place to start.")

I have a lot of the other signs of high oxalates etc so this is something I'm looking in to now. Maybe in the future I can tolerate some C again.

I took a few grains of lithium ororate yesterday and had the best night in a few days. Better mood and, it seems, a bit more energy. Guess that's more B12 being transported in to my cells? I wonder if it gives me brain fog though. Even though I'm taking only 1/20 of 5 mgs of lithium orotate. I feel a bit too even tempered too, almost as if turned off. Maybe I should lower the dose even more or not take any. Too bad if it helps with B12.

But for now, what do I do? It's been a week since I took my last B12 shot and five days since I haven't had any effect from folate. Brain fog is increasing badly, not sure what is lithium and what is B12 wearing off. I have to use Google translate all the time to write this. The low folate-pressure over my chest seems to be quite constant but stronger when at rest. Should I continue taking B12 or stop it? Take less? (I have Jarrow's sublinguals at home.) Will it help with brain fog and fatigue or will it just sky rocket my need for folate and make those symptoms worse? Or both? Since I can't tolerate C and obviously need it, at least for now, to have effect from folate, should I stop the protocol completely? Input on this much appreciated. @Freddd ?

Hi Ninan,

I found that daily MeCbl was what I needed to heal, otherwise it has start to heal in a day or two and then stop it again by the third day. Methlylfolate needs MeCbl in the cells for it to work with. I have founds it was far more effective to take a 1mg MeCbl sublingualy every day absorbing maybe 200mcg than an injection of 1mg each week or whatever. The deadlock quartet, MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and the carnitine that kicks you hard (the one with most effect, can be ALCAR, LCF, freebase or somethiong else fore some people). A person with anxiety will generally need to microtitrate the carnitine from perhaps 100 mcg and move up by 25 to 50% a day until anxiety is increased, then back off a little and let things settle down and then do a smaller increase, and basically keep it at the edge but going up. Daily use is needed. For me for instance, when I went into folate deficiency each 2 weeks and couldn't get my MCV down for lover or money. A high enough methylfolate dose often enough got rid of all sorts of symptoms and finally after decades, my MCV came down (red blood cell size). The B12 will allow the need for methylfolate to be expressed because that is the next lack in order of what is needed for cell making.

Refeeding syndrome only appears when one gets healing going, and then the symptoms that come up in order of what is otherwise stopping healing in order. So the game is get healing going and keep finding the things that stop it. For me at least. the whole purpose was to heal. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. So now I'm struggling with the trace minerals getting those balanced because those symptoms are least obvious and least studied. They become obvious when up to 200 other symptoms are no longer obscuring them. Until the basic methylation and ATP cycle allows cell formation one is chasing symptoms kind of haphazardly and most things don't happen predictably. I've been working on this for 12 years to pin down the logic of how to tell what is going on. It all depends on getting the basic core of cell healing responses going. Generally what I have seen is that the more deficient a person is the stronger those reactions. A person without reactions either has something else holding things up or no applicable symptoms.