Virus titer results from Dr. Chia... what does it mean?

[ljimbo423]

Ok. They prescribed Neomycin to take with it. Since I got so much relief for a few days from the elemental diet I’m thinking about just biting the bullet and trying the antibiotics followed by Berberine, Allicin, and BIO HPF per my doctor’s suggestion.

What you are thinking about sounds like a good plan if you are strong enough to handle any die-off from the treatment. Something that has helped me tremendously with flu-like flares from die-off is coq10.

It stopped about 95% of all the flu-like flares I use to get, that would put me in bed for 4-5 days!

I would also plan on staying on a low carb diet for some time, after treatment, if you do it. The low carb diet helps to insure the bacterial overgrowth doesn't come back.

Treating dysbiosis and intestinal permeability, unfortunately, is often a long term thing. Although it seems that some people that haven't been sick for too long are able to get rid of it faster.

I've had dysbiosis for decades. I think the longer one has it, the harder it is to get rid of.

Are you cured from CFS?

I am not cured although I have made great progress in the last year treating my gut and continue too.

 

[Dallase1]

I trust Naviaux's view. He has decades of experience as a virologist, has worked with people with CFS and researched CFS extensively.

I think he has good data to back up his view or he would not make such a statement.



There could be many reasons. Off the top of my head- it could be the specific immune system dysfunction in CFS that causes those specific high viral titers also.

As Naviaux has said- "Supertiters of IgG antibodies mean that the balancing T-cell and NK cell mediated immune activity is decreased."

That makes sense but why does Valcyte help some and not help others? I just don’t know which bandwagon to jump on. I can’t treat every single virus I have an elevated titer to at once or my organs would shut down from all the antibiotics and antivirals.

 

[Dallase1]

What you are thinking about sounds like a good plan if you are strong enough to handle any die-off from the treatment. Something that has helped me tremendously with flu-like flares from die-off is coq10.

It stopped about 95% of all the flu-like flares I use to get, that would put me in bed for 4-5 days!

I would also plan on staying on a low carb diet for some time, after treatment, if you do it. The low carb diet helps to insure the bacterial overgrowth doesn't come back.

Treating dysbiosis and intestinal permeability, unfortunately, is often a long term thing. Although it seems that some people that haven't been sick for too long are able to get rid of it faster.

I've had dysbiosis for decades. I think the longer one has it, the harder it is to get rid of.



I am not cured although I have made great progress in the last year treating my gut and continue too.

Wow you sound a lot like me! Did you treat any viruses? And what are “flu like” symptoms you’re referring to?

 

[ljimbo423]

That makes sense but why does Valcyte help some and not help others? I just don’t know which bandwagon to jump on. I can’t treat every single virus I have an elevated titer to at once or my organs would shut down from all the antibiotics and antivirals.

Hi @Dallase1 - You seem to be answering posts that I have made to somebody else. Which I think is causing you a lot of confusion. The post that you answered with this quote above was for the user "Hip".

 

[ljimbo423]

Wow you sound a lot like me!

That's because I am a lot like you!

Did you treat any viruses?

No I have never treated any viruses.

And what are “flu like” symptoms you’re referring to?

I get flu-like flares sometimes when I take too many herbs that kill off the bacteria in my gut or when I do too much physically.

Some of the bacteria in the gut have what's called lipopolysaccharides(LPS) in their cell membranes.

When they are killed off, the LPS get into the bloodstream and cause an immune system reaction, which feels much like the flu.

Too much physical activity can also cause these LPS to get into the bloodstream from the gut and cause an immune system reaction, that feels like a cold or a flu.

If you look at the first quote I make at the top of my posts. You will see if I quoted you, like the quote at the top of this post. It has your user name at the beginning of it. If the quote has somebody else' s user name at the top, the post is for them. Does that make sense?

 

[Hip]

I trust Naviaux's view.

That's not a scientific argument. If you want to champion the view that viral infection is not involved in ME/CFS, then that should be done by presentation of the scientific facts.

I could equally say that I trust the views of the various virologists and infectious disease experts who believe that enterovirus causes ME/CFS, but saying that would not help either.

You can only have a scientific dialog by presenting a scientific argument.

There could be many reasons. Off the top of my head- it could be the specific immune system dysfunction in CFS that causes those specific high viral titers also.

That would be an extraordinary coincidence that the immune dysfunction just happened to create elevated titers to enteroviruses, which just happen to be the viruses that are found to infect ME/CFS patients' muscles, brain and guts.

 

[Hip]

@ljimbo423, how do you explain the numerous infectious outbreaks of ME/CFS that have occurred all over the world on the basis of purely the cell danger response?

Very hard to explain if you take viruses out of the equation.

 

[ljimbo423]

That's not a scientific argument.

Hip , you're view seems to be that I and others need to prove our views to you scientifically. That view is simply not true. My views are my views, I do not need to prove them to you scientifically.

 

[ljimbo423]

@ljimbo423, how do you explain the numerous infectious outbreaks of ME/CFS that have occurred all over the world on the basis of purely the cell danger response?

Very hard to explain if you take viruses out of the equation.

A think viral and other infections are triggers.

They increase inflammation in the body, disturb the microbiome and increase intestinal permeability, leading to CFS symptoms, just as Chris Armstrong has explained.

 

[Hip]

Hip , you're view seems to be that I and others need to prove our views to you scientifically. That view is simply not true. My views are my views, I do not need to prove them to you scientifically.

You started off providing a scientific argument, quoting scientific statements made by Naviaux. But when flaws were pointed out in those statements, now you no longer want to engage?

A think viral and other infections are triggers.

They increase inflammation in the body, disturb the microbiome and increase intestinal permeability, leading to CFS symptoms, just as Chris Armstrong has explained.

Well that could well be a possibility, and a virally-induced disturbance to the microbiome could be part of the picture of ME/CFS.

But given that we know enterovirus remains in the gut in ME/CFS as a chronic infection, why assume just an initial triggering effect of the virus? What is to stop the virus from continuing to play an ongoing role in ME/CFS, as a result of its ongoing presence in the gut?

 

[Hip]

I am not trying to be argumentative, @ljimbo423, I am just trying to use scientific thought and logic to help understand the possible etiologies of ME/CFS.

 

[ljimbo423]

But given that we know enterovirus remains in the gut in ME/CFS as a chronic infection, why assume just an initial triggering effect of the virus? What is to stop the virus from continuing to play an ongoing role in ME/CFS, as a result of its ongoing presence in the gut?

I think in that case it's an ongoing infection and not just a trigger and could cause CFS symptoms, in my view.

Just as parasites like Giardia etc. could create an ongoing infection and possibly CFS symptoms, I think.

 

[Hip]

Just as parasites like Giardia etc. could create an ongoing infection and possibly CFS symptoms, I think.

Yes, Giardia lamblia is an intriguing one, as this protozoan infection remains confined to the gut (as far as I am aware), and yet nevertheless appears to be able to cause ME/CFS. Which does suggest an important role for the gut in ME/CFS.

 

[Dallase1]

Yes, Giardia lamblia is an intriguing one, as this protozoan infection remains confined to the gut (as far as I am aware), and yet nevertheless appears to be able to cause ME/CFS. Which does suggest an important role for the gut in ME/CFS.

Hip, do you or did you have

What you are thinking about sounds like a good plan if you are strong enough to handle any die-off from the treatment. Something that has helped me tremendously with flu-like flares from die-off is coq10.

It stopped about 95% of all the flu-like flares I use to get, that would put me in bed for 4-5 days!

I would also plan on staying on a low carb diet for some time, after treatment, if you do it. The low carb diet helps to insure the bacterial overgrowth doesn't come back.

Treating dysbiosis and intestinal permeability, unfortunately, is often a long term thing. Although it seems that some people that haven't been sick for too long are able to get rid of it faster.

I've had dysbiosis for decades. I think the longer one has it, the harder it is to get rid of.



I am not cured although I have made great progress in the last year treating my gut and continue too.

Jim,
Thanks for the encouragement. This seems like an actionable step. Going after every single virus I have a high titer to seems daunting. Did you have any high virus titers and did you find any anti-viral treatments useful?

 

[Dallase1]

Yes, Giardia lamblia is an intriguing one, as this protozoan infection remains confined to the gut (as far as I am aware), and yet nevertheless appears to be able to cause ME/CFS. Which does suggest an important role for the gut in ME/CFS.

Which viruses did you have high titers for?

 

[Hip]

Hip, do you or did you have

My stool test (Genova Diagnostics Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis 2.0 with Parasitology) did not show any sign of Giardia lamblia. However, I have not been tested for Giardia lamblia antibodies.

Five years prior to contracting the Coxsackie B virus that appeared to cause my ME/CFS, I developed what I think was severe IBS-D, with a constant severe watery diarrhea that lasted at least 10 years. Along with the bowel symptoms, I also developed taught muscles (high muscle tension) and generalized anxiety disorder. (Although it's also possible it was microscopic colitis, as 6% of people diagnosed with IBS-D actually have microscopic colitis).

I suspected those IBS and diarrhea symptoms were caused by contracting some sort of pathogen, but there was nothing much in my stool test that came out as pathogenic (the only slightly pathogenic microbes in my gut were Proteus mirabilis and Staphylococcus aureus). There is such a thing as post infectious IBS, and this has been linked to various pathogens including Campylobacter, Shigella, Salmonella and Escherichia coli.


I still have IBS-D now, but it is only mild. My IBS improved a lot after I removed chloramine (not the same as chlorine) from my tap drinking water. See this thread. Chloramine is worse that chlorine in terms of being an irritant to the intestinal lining, and in terms of worsening leaky gut.

 

[Hip]

Which viruses did you have high titers for?

I had high titers for coxsackievirus B4.

 

[Dallase1]

I had high titers for coxsackievirus B4.

What were the symptoms of the virus when you caught it?
How high were your titers?

 

[Hip]

What were the symptoms of the virus when you caught it?

It started with a herpangina sore throat, and later the virus spread to my stomach and intestines. But when this virus started to affect my brain, that's when the s**t hit the fan, as it caused some horrible mental symptoms, including anxiety, depression, anhedonia, blunted affect and others.

My virus also caused these symptoms in other people who caught it. So clearly it strongly affected the brain in some way. Heart attacks were also common in the group of people who caught my virus.

Due to the severity of these symptoms, I think I may have caught a nastier than usual strain of CVB4. I detail this nasty CVB4 on my website here.

How high were your titers?

My CVB4 titers were 1:1024, but this was not tested at ARUP, but by a lab in the Netherlands that offered a similar antibody test by neutralization. However, the lab told me that these titers were very high.

 

[Dallase1]

It started with a herpangina sore throat, and later the virus spread to my stomach and intestines. But when this virus started to affect my brain, that's when the s**t hit the fan, as it caused some horrible mental symptoms, including anxiety, depression, anhedonia, blunted affect and others.

My virus also caused these symptoms in other people who caught it. So clearly it strongly affected the brain in some way. Heart attacks were also common in the group of people who caught my virus.

Due to the severity of these symptoms, I think I may have caught a nastier than usual strain of CVB4. I detail this nasty CVB4 on my website here.





My CVB4 titers were 1:1024, but this was not tested at ARUP, but by a lab in the Netherlands that offered a similar antibody test by neutralization. However, the lab told me that these titers were very high.

Oh wow. I didn’t have a triggering event like that. Mine was more gradual but I basically exercised myself into exhaustion and the CFS. I’m sure it caused an unbalanced immune system.
So let me ask you, have you tried any anti-virals or prescription immune modulators?
Are you cured from CFS?