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Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boohealth, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    No high protein (ammonia problems), but am taking an arginine/lysine/ornithine combo now, ironically for ammonia mop-up. I'll try the b6/p5p maybe the end of the week or early next week, as this week will start the pantethine.

    And yes, maybe we are in the wrong thread but no one can stop us! :)
     
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  2. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Hi Kath,

    I take one 400ug Solgar methylfolate tab in the mornings; and thereafter get my folate from greens, orange juice, etc. I'm not sure how long I'll keep up the Solgar, as I am working hard to replace my pills with food.

    I don't take any supplementary potassium now; just maybe a banana a day, plus some from veg etc. I used to get lots of low-K symptoms - chiefly cramps - but not much any more, presumably due to the B2.

    I'm on 50 mg B2/day. I take the B-Right multi B, which also has the B1 you need.

    I wouldn't say I'm in perfect health. I've had two round of serious infections in the last few months. I suspect they're not much related to methylation etc, but to something else I'm doing (wrong). That means it's hard to say (beyond the above) what the new approach is doing. However it has removed the "leaden limbs" fatigue I had before switching to the oils (that took 28 days); and it has made things much more even: I don't have those huge highs & lows that I had on the Freddd protocol.

    A work in progress.

    Horrendous story about your ER visit - wow. Yep, you don't want that again. Greg will probably give you better answers than me on the K.

    I had my first & only round of reflux a year ago - it was appalling & very painful. I fixed it with the Chris Kresser reduced carb/betaine hydrochloride approach: his theory being that reflux is usually from too little stomach acid, not too much.

    Cutler chelation: it helped with some issues. It wasn't the one big breakthrough I'd hoped it might be, but it was well worth doing. I smashed a fluoro lightbulb a couple of years ago, which gave me acute Hg symptoms, & seemed to reverse a lot of the progress I'd made. So I still chelate sometimes when the decks are clear.

    Good luck...

     
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  3. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Yes, I've wondered this, too! I actually slept only 2 hours last night! And despite that and a rather sloggy morning, I had enormous energy the rest of the day--though now feel a bit strung out and looking forward to my Epsom Salts soak! I didn't eat 3 Brazil Nuts today. My selenium was just tested and was fine, so maybe I don't need to have my thyroid (which is one thing that falls right in the center of normal) nudged further. I've also had a few twinges in what may be my adrenal glands--they sit atop the kidneys, don't they? Nothing painful, just a little jolt and done!

    So far, it really is a bit more of this, a bit less of that. And there are just so many variables. At least today I was in a good mood about it. I also didn't take any extra FMN--beyond the 10mg I get in my BMinus complex. I was thinking of ordering some plain old B2 and just using that. And actually as my B-Minus is nearly out, I was thinking of trying Jarrow's B-Right. Is that the one you're using, too? (Johnmac is) It has a basic 25mg level of the lower Bs plus 400 methyl-folate as a base... I took extra folate today, too, when my neck/face issues began to drive me nuts again and all that I had to deal with was some tingling in my neck and chest. The test will be how I fare tonight...

    I hope I'm not in for too much of an adventure. I've had enough of those recently...

    It will be interesting to hear your 23andme results. If you need help feeding it though the analytical app, or looking into it further on Promethease, let me know. Not that I know much, but I do have a few notes.
     
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  4. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Just looking at my diary for the last year, & I too have had these wild ups & downs - one week sleeping all the time; the next week working 15-hour days on 6 hours sleep.

    I must say that since beginning the TD oil (slower & more even delivery, higher effective doses) & adding more B2, that has evened out quite a bit.

     
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  5. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    Thanks for that, Kath. It's very kind of you. Is Promethease the best one to use? (I have no idea, complete newbie on this!).

    Sounds like you're having some not too bad days amongst the rotten ones and even the odd good day. I think this is how it will go for many of us while we wait for all our under-functioning endocrine feedback loops to calm down after the introduction of b12 makes them over-function for a bit & while we wait for b2 to regulate things. That's paraphrasing Greg a bit, but it certainly applies to me. I walked for an hour for three days in a row last weekend and no crash (nowhere near that level for decades!) and like the last good spell I mentioned, I slept well for a few days again- up to 8 hours for 3 nights! Then since yesterday, an estrogen & testosterone surge (mid cycle) has suppressed my thyroid and cortisol levels again so I'm cold and achy, and sleeping patchily, but not too bad, and I know it will settle again - it always does. But I do wish the wild fluctuating would stop. Greg believes it will, which is heartening. Fingers crossed we'll all settle soon.
    Agreed on 'adventure' by the way. Calmness is all I want for now...

    Yep, that's right - the adrenals lie atop the kidneys. I get twinges too and some lower back ache. It's not half as severe as it used to be and passes quickly. It used to be that I could barely turn over in bed with the knife-like pain in the adrenals, but now, like you the odd twinge.

    I'm using a very basic B2 from Holland & Barrett (local here) and it seems to be working. Can I ask how much folate and potassium do you take now? (I would like to further lower mine, gradually, but I might not be able to just yet). We'll see!
     
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  6. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    We crossed in the post there. I've just been saying something similar!. I hope things calm down with the 'wild ups & downs' like yours have! How long did it take since you began TD oil?
     
  7. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    I had a big crash over several days at the end of Week 1. My guess that was from cold turkeying off carnitine. Thereafter the MeCbl started me producing my own carnitine - or at least it's supposed to, & the crash did abate.

    Since then nothing much. I got some weird infections which are now also abating, so soon I'll have an idea of where I stand since beginning the oils 2 months or so ago. But that leaden limbs CFS body-sense is gone. And so is most of the brainfog.
     
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  8. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    STOP PRESS: Got the inside dope on green pee:

    Kind of fluorescent green-yellow is fine. Should be most obvious 40 mins after a B2 dose. Volume makes a difference to the color of course.

    (I was imagining more a Timothy Leary kind of color, so it's good to clear that up.)
     
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  9. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    No Timothy Leary here either :) Fluorescent green-yellow mostly. So, what's the reason for it? (I should have asked G). Is it just a sign that it's been absorbed and the colour is the waste products?
     
  10. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    P.S. @Johnmac I remember you saying your blood glucose was up and that it might relate to your recent infections. I just got my blood results back. Wow, b2 has raised my ferritin beautifully and in only a few weeks. My iron saturation is perfectly normal again too, now at top of range (it had gone below normal range) and all the iron markers are really good now. Also my hypothyroidism is improving as a result (t3 still a bit low in range) but cholesterol has normalised (low normal) as a result of thyroid improvement and cortisol looks good and high (though serum isn't 100% reliable, it's still a lot higher than before).

    The thing I noticed is that my blood glucose, although normal at 5.2 nmol/L (3.5-5.5) has risen by a few points. Isn't that interesting? It's something I've noticed before - when iron goes up, blood sugar goes up. I guess we better not take too much b2 - have asked G about this in relation to iron. But it really is a magic vitamin :)

    *Edit: He wasn't worried about the iron/sugar thing. Could be the cortisol raising it, not sure
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
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  11. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Hey @Johnmac what levels of potassium were you taking before reduced it due to b2? Clearly you didn't experience Fred's warning that increasing b2 can result in increasing need for potassium and methylfolate?

    Cheers

     
  12. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    I was taking 2 or 3 teaspoons of potassium chloride in water per day, from memory. Used to add more if I got low-K symptoms - which happened quite often.

    After a few months the K began to burn my throat, so I switched to coconut water - maybe a coconut or 2 a day, fresh. (I was living in Cambodia - $1.25 each.)

    Then I dropped the K & carnitine, reduced the m-folate (& began eating greens), & added in more B2 - maybe 40mg/day total.

    I was aware of Fred's warning, but also his later caveats. Nothing bad happened to me. I don't have any -K symptoms.

    Cheers...
     
  13. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Don't know, sorry. (I'd assumed it was just the leftover B2.)
     
  14. SJB944

    SJB944 Senior Member

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    Thanks @Johnmac, I've been on Fred's Protocol for some years, had some great benefits, in particular after eventually introducing l-carnitine (very slowly), but have hit a point where taking really high dosage of Methylfolate (18mg) and almost 3gs of potassium a day -- which is hardly keeping potassium symptoms at bay. Wondering about the effectiveness of the sugblingual b12, time to try oils I think.

    B2 is interesting, tried it on and off over the years with no clear benefit. I take a low dosage b-complex (Nature made) but only 1/8th of it twice a day -- any increase lead to insatiable need for folate and potassium, but that might be a particular vitamin b, not all, and maybe not b2!

    So in theory, if taking mb12 and methylfolate and potassium, taking more b2 can reduce need for methylfolate and potassium -- which is not necessarily contrary to Fred, but rather he argues there is a point where more b2 has the opposite effect and increases need for potassium and methylfolate.

    It's all so simple...when it works....
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
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  15. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    It is all very complicated and I think I must ask Greg about the relationship potassium has to his particular protocol.

    You're right, Fred believes that the higher the lower Bs--B2, say--the higher need (insatiable is his word) for potassium and folate. Like you, and many here, I've been very sensitive to all supplements and approached this with caution. I'm also on a very low dose beta blocker which can increase potassium levels. If we are following the Fred Protocol, irregular heartbeats have two basic causes--low folate or low potassium--so when the symptom shows up, we try one or the other. Or both.

    Which is what I did last night. First the extra potassium, 300 mg gluconate in 1/2 tsp., then a half hour later when my heartbeat was still a bit wobbly, 200mcg of folate. I've only recently increased my folate levels after holding them to about 800mcg/day for quite a while. So, just up to 1200mcg folate, with this extra 200 and within a half hour I was so relaxed, but I realized very quickly, not in a comfortable way. My heartbeat was VERY SLOW, my chest felt heavy, like someone was sitting on it, and I felt like I might just stop breathing.

    That was enough to give me a shot of adrenaline! I spent a while on the phone with an on-call nurse and learned one antidote to high potassium levels - water. I may also have been a bit dehydrated as I'd been racing around all day (the result of .6 squirt of the B12 Oils, maybe too much for me still). So I just stayed awake, reading most of the night, and in the end, had to take a tiny dose of valium to help me let go of the hyper-state I'd put myself into. All for 2 hours of sleep.

    That said, I'm still kind of shaky and feeling that the whole irregular heartbeat episode might not have been either a need for potassium or folate, but rather the adrenals waking up, as has been reported here lately, I think. Part of Greg's protocol, where he has us having 3 Brazil Nuts/day to stimulate the thyroid with their selenium. For me, the extra thyroid stimulating hormone my be too much as my thyroid has been functioning well within normal ranges. My cardiologist said she'd never give me anything to stimulate my thyroid because of my tendency toward irregular beats, so it may not be a good part of the approach for me.

    But of course, it could be something else entirely. The adrenals waking up. And I think that is the B2. (Please chime in, those of you who know better)

    So, there you are, another quagmire. For me, no Brazil nuts today! And just 3-5,000mcg MeB12 in the old Enzymatic lozenges! (Oh, and I'd lowered my B2 levels as I've been trying to figure this out--to about 30-35mg/day)
     
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  16. boohealth

    boohealth Senior Member

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    Hi all, haven't been back to my thread in a while. Still planning to get around to talking to Greg and trying the oils. @garyfritz thanks for answering.

    I see y'all mentioning iodine. Has anyone read David Brownstein's book? I am considering having my iodine tested (excretion over 24 hours after a loading dose). Im probably deficient. In this modern world, fluoridated water, flame retardants (bromine), bromine in wheat/bread, chlorides--all halides like iodine--displace iodine. I don't think iodized salt is ideal. Seaweed!
     
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  17. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    As you can see just above, I may be too erratic. I'm going to try to hold my folate levels to 1200 for a while (at least that's my thought in the moment!) On 1200 mcg folate, many of my neck face symptoms of tightening muscles let go and I'm left with just soreness and a lot of tingling. Last night with the extra 200mcg folate, I felt the muscle in my right arm (somewhat atrophied and sore) aching and my carpal tunnel active (which it hadn't been for a while) I took this as a sign that more folate was reaching older spots that required healing; and that this was really my body asking for more folate still. But, I don't want to jump in on this as the whole electrolyte level thing is such a concern of mine.

    My usual potassium supplementation is 4 doses of 1/2 rounded tsp gluconate--about 300mg. So that's 1200 mg/day. But then, on a regular basis I eat lentils (1/2 cup= 350-400mg), oranges (possibly 300mg) or some other piece of fruit, squash and 8 oz of coconut water (400mg or more), and a hefty serving of some kind of squash for dinner (490mg/cup of cubes!). So as you can see, this may be as much as another 100-1400mg of potassium.

    And maybe it's just too much... (Yesterday I got up to 5 doses of potassium and that, along with dehydration, may have pushed me over the edge)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2016
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  18. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    I use Celtic Grey Sea Salt and have for years used 3 drops of BodyBio iodine/day, which is only about 200mcg of iodine, but seems to be enough for me. I thinks it's about the RDA and I seemingly have no thyroid issues...

    Greg does advocate a bit of iodine. Maybe he says 'a drop.' Whatever it is, it isn't much. Other than the B12 and the B2, he is on the side of getting most of what you need in your food, an idea I really like...if I could just get there!
     
  19. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    In a way b2 has 'woken up' my adrenals in that I'm producing more cortisol But, in another way, it's calmed my adrenals by reducing adrenalin surges from the daily 1mg Meb12 injections I had been on for 3 years. Those surges had left me very weak and achy with severe insomnia and scary palpitations and increasing blood pressure (used to be always too low) and I didn't know what it was from. I thought b12 injections are supposed to help the adrenals (and they do with enough riboflavin & folate, and good thyroid function which I didn't have).

    I have severe b12 deficiency (diagnosed Pernicious Anaemia and waiting for gene tests - probably other stuff going on with b12 & folate issues) so I was too scared to give up the injections. I ended up on hydrocortisone for two years because of all the above symptoms and fluctuating blood pressure, collapses etc. Several consultants were flummoxed.

    But I'm off hydrocortisone now and I'm very glad about that (was taking 20mg HC daily for two years, and up to 25mg some days, and was beginning to think I had permanent cortisol insufficiency and would be on HC for good). 6 weeks on b2 (working up from 30mg to 200mg daily) and my adrenals are working on their own. I have also needed high-dose 5MTHF and potassium (did Fredd protocol for 2 months, but the low b2 tanked my iron and ferritin), but now titrating down on 5MTHF & potassium, and no symptoms of folate or potassium insufficiency on the lower doses (so far). My ferritin and iron are perfect now since the b2.

    Who knows if this will last. My thyroid requires a lot of monitoring still and I could do with raising my t3 level a bit more, but it might just be that cortisol is too high now and suppressing thyroid level. That's something I can work on.

    In the past I've felt great only to crash the following week. I'm optimistic, but we'll see...
     
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  20. Athene*

    Athene* Senior Member

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    Some say seaweed could be contaminated with mercury.
     

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