• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Video Dr Kaufman Diagnose ME/CFS - What criteria does he use?

Messages
27
Just found this video from Dr Kaufman:

Can someone tell me what criteria he uses to diagnose his patients?

He uses PEM so it is not International Consensus Criteria (ICC) which uses PENE.
It also looks not like Canadian Consensus Criteria (CCC).
And this
"this core featuress of this illness ... present at leas 50% of the time"
I can't find neither in ICC nor in CCC.

Are this his own criteria?
 
Messages
41
Location
Sacramento, CA
He uses diagnostic criteria as well as lab work- history is most important, but he will check arginine vasopressin, NKC function, and many other things based on each patient's history/symptoms (lots of infectious disease testing, autoAB testing, immune function testing, skin punch/SFN testing, etc.).
 

Gemini

Senior Member
Messages
1,176
Location
East Coast USA
Just found this video from Dr Kaufman:
Can someone tell me what criteria he uses to diagnose his patients?
This video is part of #MEAction's new CME program available in the US. The video is also posted on this thread with a description of the CME program for physicians, nurses and social workers:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...-off-call-october-25-2018.61974/#post-1011493

Today @Tom Kindlon posted a link to a transcript of the video on that thread. Haven't read it but perhaps the answer to your question is in the transcript?

Thanks for re-posting the video @wholepartthings, it's an important resource.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Messages
27
So,

I couldn't sleep because of this topic unfortunately...

With the help of https://www.mediafire.com/file/w1d9gxgg41nsvh2/Dr.+Kaufman^J+final.pdf
I was able to figure out what criteria he uses in this video.

These are really the Systemic Exertion Intolerance Disease (SEID) criteria.
You can find them here: https://me-pedia.org/wiki/SEID#Diagnostic_criteria

If I would say to a normal doctor I have SEID then he takes me even less seriously than with ME.

These criteria are also used by MEAction in this document: http://www.meaction.net/wp-content/...ent-of-Myalgic-Encephalomyelitis-MEAction.pdf

I hope I have read correctly and my bad English doesn't get in my way?
 
Messages
27
ME vs CFS vs SEID:
Look at this image, scroll down to the last part:
http://www.shoutoutaboutme.com/wp-content/uploads/me-cfs-seid-chart-via-arainbowatnight-smaller.png

The most important sentence is
...ME can be diagnosed by an expert within WEEKS and early diagnosis & management are CRUCIAL to preventing permanent damage and disease progression.

If you are only diagnosed after 6 months (SEID) then most of the pople have gone so far beyond their limits that the disease is far progressed!
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Dr. Kaufman treats each patient as a unique individual by examining them, questioning them about symptoms, looking through their medical history, and then running lab tests based on his initial observations and hunches.

Then, he diagnosis with a list of ICD 10 codes that are appropriate. So, although he diagnosed me with ME/CFS, over time, he has also diagnosed me using about 8 other ICD 10 codes, and prescribed treatments appropriate for the problems identified.

Arguing about ME vs CFS vs SEID vs ICC isn't terribly useful here..what matters is getting diagnosed and prescribed a treatment that works.:thumbsup:
 
Messages
27
Arguing about ME vs CFS vs SEID vs ICC isn't terribly useful here..what matters is getting diagnosed and prescribed a treatment that works.:thumbsup:
No, if SEID get's official criteria then you have to wait 6 months. Who would treat you if you do not yet match the criteria?
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Well, the problem is there's no treatment for SEID.

He diagnosed me with it, but he's treating me for the 8 other things he diagnosed me with, not for SEID, so the 6 months and the SEID don't really matter.
 
Messages
41
Location
Sacramento, CA
Dr. Kaufman treats each patient as a unique individual by examining them, questioning them about symptoms, looking through their medical history, and then running lab tests based on his initial observations and hunches.

Then, he diagnosis with a list of ICD 10 codes that are appropriate. So, although he diagnosed me with ME/CFS, over time, he has also diagnosed me using about 8 other ICD 10 codes, and prescribed treatments appropriate for the problems identified.

Arguing about ME vs CFS vs SEID vs ICC isn't terribly useful here..what matters is getting diagnosed and prescribed a treatment that works.:thumbsup:

I agree- I think Dr. K was reading off of a teleprompter or something for the purposes of the video :).
 
Messages
27
I agree- I think Dr. K was reading off of a teleprompter or something for the purposes of the video :).
I know.
I just wanted to know what official criteria he used.
And that's the SEID criteria where all (well, not all, MEAction seems to use it) people fight against because there are better like ICC available which are more accurate.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
A lot of us don't have a problem with the SEID ctlriteria. There was a huge amount of data reviewed by experts to agree upon it. It is meant for clinicians and it's simple and easy to follow for busy clinicians.

The point is to get more patients diagnosed, which may be helpful in fighting for disability status. At least the patient has a name for the problem (ME/CFS) which may bring him or her to resources that can help.

A more stringent criteria might be useful for researchers, but from what I can see, patoents with a lot of underlying problems can fit the ICC criteria. I don't believe, nor do the scientists, that this is one biological problem.

Take the NIH study going on. Many of us didn't qualify, as a single viral episode didn't set us off. I didn't qualify, as my cancer treatment triggered my ME/CFS, yet I fit the ICC criteria and my labs match pretty well with what the scientists have been finding. I've tried getting into studies at Stanford, but I'm either too old (over 50), on too many drugs and supplements, and getting better, so they fint want to study me.

So, even if they use the ICC as a gate for research, it's not going to help patients like me who aren't represented in the studies.

But, it is useful to recognize I have a second major illness to be able to realize what I'm up against, plan my life accordingly, and do the due diligence to whittle away at the complex set of underlying problems (which are many, as they seen to be with many other patients) causing my symptoms, which have been lessening over time.

It serves me no purpose to debate the criteria. Dr. K is a brilliant, caring, competent doctor who diagnosed me with ME/CFS the first time I saw him, while numerous other doctors hadn't, and I have been improving under his care and that of my other doctors.

Whats needed is a follow up video with a rundown of testing and treatments, which should include a functional medicine approach as well as conventional medicine, which has too limited a set of tools to fully help us.
 
Messages
27
Have you ever had a closer look at the SEID/IOM documents?
Have a look what it says there:
Furthermore, those most severely affected by ME/CFS may be bedridden or homebound and may not have been included in any of these studies (Wiborg et al., 2010). Thus, there are selection biases in the studies' sample composition.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK284902/

So the most severely affected were not considered at all!
That would be like ignoring the cases of cancer which will die soon.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Yes, most research seems to be on the severely ill but not as much on those of us that were mildly or moderately illl, which is the majority of patients., and looking at cancer survivors and groups of cancer survivors, which is more than a few.

No that studying the moderately or mildly I'll would be invaluable...the extensive lab, genetic, and biochemistry tests have been quote informative in maximizing our function.

I don't believe there's a one-size-fits-all.solution. I've learned getting.advice, labs of that biochemistry and microbiome function and exposure to toxins and comprehensive supplementation to refeed and normslize biochemistry goes a long early, changing over time.

Hope the attached help, and am curious how to find oit where you gonabd ehstvyiubkearn in 424.922.5747.

Let me know what you think!
 

Attachments

  • Maes - central pathways fatigue CFS Parkinsons.pdf
    1.3 MB · Views: 6
  • 20170731_072303.jpg
    20170731_072303.jpg
    306.5 KB · Views: 11
  • Richvank B12 processing in body.pdf
    56.8 KB · Views: 8