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Unfolded Protein Response and A Possible Treatment for CFS

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
I have an aversion to leafy greens. I wonder if that means I don't need /tolerate them. When I've tried those green superfoods drinks, I've always felt worse.

Me too. I get crystal formation in my joints and tendons from vegetation and those drinks.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
Thanks, @mariovitali

I am listing mine and DH's results below. Mario, what is the conclusion? Please apologize my slow thinking here. I have been pursuing much more basic stuff b/c I just can't follow the more elaborate research right now.

PEMT
rs7946 - Risk = A
TT-CT
rs4244593 - Risk = G
GG-GG

MTHFD1
rs2236225 - Risk = A
GG-AA
rs2236224 - Risk = A
GG-AA

CHDH
rs9001 - Risk = G
GT-TT
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@Gondwanaland

-You have homozygous mutation for rs7946 and DH heterozygous (remember A=T and G=C)
-You both have homozygous mutation for rs4244593
-DH has an homozygous mutation for rs2236225 but you are ok
-DH has an homozygous mutation for rs2236224 but you are ok
-You have an heterozygous mutation for rs9001 but DH is ok.

It appears that -especially DH- could be *very* low in Choline. You could try supplementing with 350 mg per day Choline Bitartate and see how he feels (or to eat foods high in Choline). This will probably also raise Trimethylamine-N-Oxidase levels (which is considered good if these levels are too low)

There are certain bacteria strands that raise Trimethylamine-N-Oxidase such as Firmicutes and Rhamnosus. So you could try adding these for a week, along with Choline to produce TMAO. Note that too much TMAO is possibly atherogenic.

I am still trying to find whether Choline supplementation alone raises TMAO or Probiotics should be added. Whatever the case, i managed to drop TUDCA and supplement only with Choline 350 mg. I feel great :)


@adreno

Homozygous for rs2236225,rs2236224 you could also try Choline 350 mg per day (or eat Choline rich foods)
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
I have an aversion to leafy greens. I wonder if that means I don't need /tolerate them. When I've tried those green superfoods drinks, I've always felt worse.

Maybe its the type of greens since many are extremely high in oxalates. Commonly used ones would include spinach, chard and parsley. Not all greens are high though. Good ones include cavallo nero (dino kale), purple kale, mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, rocket (arugula), coriander (cilantro). Lettuce and all kinds of cabbage are also very low.
 
Messages
55
Location
Auckland, NZ
Interesting thread this one... which I'm slowly working my way through!

There's a fair amount of things I don't tolerate on your "STAY AWAY From" list.

I took accutane when I was younger - but I didn't get sick until 7 or so years after I'd stopped taking it. Rich did note that a fair few people he's dealt with were on accutane before they fell ill.

My SNPs:

rs7946 - Risk = A
TT

rs4244593 - Risk = G
GG

rs2236225 - Risk = A
AA

rs2236224 - Risk = A
AA

rs9001 - Risk = G
TT

I'm working through methylation at the moment. I have the MTHFR mutation - possible compound heterozygous. My homocysteine was 17.5 last I checked - so getting this down can't hurt, I'd wager.

I've never tried Choline Bitartrate. Give it a shot once my homocysteine is down to 7-8? Thoughts?
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@Ema, @adreno

There might be a problem with rs7946 that i listed (regarding the Risk allele). I found another source which lists the following alleles :

G>T
G>C

https://www.pharmgkb.org/variant/rs7946

@Mogwai
You will definitely feel better with Choline, you have 3 homozygous mutations (...!)

I would advise that you Start supplementing with Choline Bitartate at 350 mg per day and please report back. Have you had a liver panel recently? FYI elevated Homocysteine also results from Choline deficiency apart from MTHFR Mutation(s).
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@JPV
3 Heterozygous mutations apart the first and the last one you listed

@adreno @Ema @Mogwai @Gondwanaland @JPV

Several mouse models with deletion of choline-related genes have given insight into the mechanisms
of NAFLD. In severalmousemodels, deletion of genes needed to use choline as a methyl donor (Bhmt [33&]
and Chdh [34&]), deletion of genes needed to form the choline moiety endogenously (Pemt [35]), or deletion
of genes needed tomake S-adenosylmethionine (Mat1 [36]) result in fatty liver. In humans, polymorphisms
in PEMT [37,38] are associated with NAFLD. These observations suggest that the methyl-donation function
of choline is important in the mechanism of NAFLD.
Earlier, we discussed the hypothesis that
phosphatidylcholine was required for normal VLDL secretion from liver. The genetic data suggest that
it is phosphatidylcholine that is derived from the PEMT methylation pathway which is important
(rather than phosphatidylcholine derived from preformed choline); mouse studies support this
conclusion [39].

Endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress is a condition whereby excess unfolded proteins lead to a cascade
of stress responses. If stress is chronic, cell death can occur. ER stress is believed to play a role in the
pathogenesis of NAFLD
[51]. In mice fed methionine–choline-deficient diets for up to 21 days, hepatic
steatosis was associated with inducing specific ER stress cascades upstream of the unfolded protein
response. The integrated ER stress response was unable to cause liver injury in the absence of steatosis,
suggesting a coordinated mechanism is necessary for liver disease progression
[52]. Another link
between choline, NAFLD, and ER stress was found when metabolomic and proteomic studies in obese,
leptin-deficient mice revealed that the obese phenotype is characterized by ER stress, increased
expression of proteins involved in lipogenesis and phospholipid metabolism (including PEMT), and a
distinct lipid profile characterized by increased monounsaturated fatty acids and an increased phosphatidylcholine
to phosphatidylethanolamine concentration ratio. This altered ratio impairs calcium
signaling and ER homeostasis [53&].


The study of the influence of the gut microbiome on human health has advanced tremendously.
The gut microbiome integrates many important pathways, including those related to
enterohepatic circulation of bile, cholesterol, and phospholipids [56]. The gut flora modulates host
immunity [57], glucose, lipid, and energy metabolism [58], and choline availability [59], all of which
play a role in NAFLD
[60]. Gut microbiome composition is influenced by multiple factors such as
maternal diet, lifelong diet, environmental exposures, and genetics [61]. Gammaproteobacteria and
Erysipelotrichi within the gut microbiome were directly associated with changes in liver fat in
humans during choline depletion. Levels of these bacteria, change in amount of liver fat, and a singlenucleotide
polymorphism (PEMT rs12325817) that affects choline biosynthesis were combined into a model that accurately predicted the degree to which
patients developed fatty liver on a choline-deficient diet [4&]. This suggests that understanding the
effects of the microbiome can enhance current paradigms defining NAFLD risk and progression

See attached file for more
 

Attachments

  • Choline_metab_insights_NAFLD.pdf
    366.6 KB · Views: 15

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@JPV

You could try supplementing with Choline (if you do not eat frequently Choline-rich foods). Please also have a look at the file i uploaded. Choline deficiency can have many serious implications apart from NAFLD.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
Been taking TUDCA, along with Turmeric, for about a week now. The only other things I'm taking right now are 2 tabs of Miyarisan and 300mcg of Melatonin before bedtime.

Too early to report much but I feel there are minor improvements with a few things, bit less brain fog, better mood and libido. I have a lot instances where my thinking is much more sharper and clearer but it kinda comes and goes. Nothing dramatic, but still promising.

Mostly on a somewhat modified version of the Perfect Health Diet. Mainly eating red meat, chicken, some fish white rice, potatoes and veggies like carrots and zucchini. I try to stay away from a lot of histamine rich foods.

I'm pretty sure inflammation is a major issue for me. Even when avoiding inflammatory foods it's still hard to keep inflammation under control.
 
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mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@JPV

Good to know you are feeling somewhat better.


I had to experiment many times to find out what works and what doesn't. I am trying to cut down everything to absolute basics.


Currently My regimen is as follows :


8:00 AM : Dibencozide (1/4 tab), P5P, Metafolin 1600 mcg, Choline (as bitartate) 350 mg
12:00 PM : Vitamin C 500 mg
14:00 Metafolin
16:00 TUDCA 250 mg (just re-introduced it to continue liver support)
17:00 Metafolin
19:00 Taurine 1 gram

There are things happening to me which are simply amazing and hopefully they will continue to happen.

-I can hear better and actually i have much better frequency response than years before (..!)
-My floaters (i got the first one when i was 22 i think) have been reduced by more than half.
-Liver spots on my hands have faded away (i can see them under a specific viewing angle though)
-Color of urine is significantly more lighter in the morning and throughout the day
 
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Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
That info about the gut microbiome is really interesting.

Until 2013 I had fatty liver, even though I was at my ideal weight at that time, and triglycerids were high. When I went gluten free, fatty liver disappeared and triglycerids halved.

For a long time I haven't tolerated egg whites, so I had been eating only the choline-rich yolks.
Now I can eat them whole :balloons:
 
Messages
55
Location
Auckland, NZ
@Mogwai
You will definitely feel better with Choline, you have 3 homozygous mutations (...!)

I would advise that you Start supplementing with Choline Bitartate at 350 mg per day and please report back. Have you had a liver panel recently? FYI elevated Homocysteine also results from Choline deficiency apart from MTHFR Mutation(s).

Thanks - will give CB a go then, and report back how I get on. I'll start in a week or so - have to order it from overseas with my usual stuff first.

I haven't had a liver panel for a while - but it's been fine in the past. I'm seeing my Doc next week anyway - so will add it to my bloods.

I'll answer these questions while I'm here!

a) Do you feel that CFS symptoms are less noticeable while you have a Cold / Flu?
I haven't had a cold/flu since I fell ill (14 years, and not even a runny nose). When the flu does the rounds, I tend to get a worsening of my ME symptoms.

b) Do you feel generally better during the summer and worse during the winter time?
I do now, yes. I use to feel worse in the summer (for the first 10 years of being ill), but now my thyroid is obviously underactive, I really struggle in the cold. This was worsened when I took l-carnitine. I still hate extreme heat, as I don't sweat either/have POTS - but the cold hits me much harder these days.

c) How many of the childhood illnesses have you had?
Chickenpox, and mono.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,214
@Mogwai,

If you don't have High Cholesterol you could start eating Eggs more frequently (especially the yolk as there might be problems for CFS sufferers consuming frequenty Egg-whites) until Choline arrives.


Good Luck!
 
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