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Unable to sleep because dread wake up any tips?

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by redrachel76, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    My problem is that when I try to fall asleep at night, I feel fear of how I will feel when I get up and how the hell I will manage to do an appointment in the morning. This keeps me awake even worse.

    From this illness I have Delayed circadium rythm or reversal of the circadium rythm. Also when I wake up I feel a million times more tired than when I tried to sleep at night.

    I have tried all the sleep hygene . It is useless. Exercise and trying to use the bed only for sleep seem to worsen the insomnia.

    Maybe this should go on the emotional forum but I am not depressed about it, just very frustrated. I want tips on how to cope and hear if anyone else has had this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  2. alkt

    alkt Senior Member

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    unfortunately this wont help I tried the sleep hygiene route for the first decade of this illness it only made things worse . now I sleep mainly in the day time . I see it as listening to what my body needs rather than listening to what so called professionals think .
     
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  3. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    You are so right.


    The problems is that some days I have to wake up early. Like a doctor's appointment or if I have to do an errand.

    Like tomorrow I have to get up at 8am to wait for the man who will mend the mold in my apartment. The mold is caused by the neighbour above. I was lucky I had a nice neighbour who fully cooperated and forced their reluctant insurance company to send someone to repair. Therefore I can not argue about what time they come.

    Most of the local doctors either only receive in the morning, or if they work afternoons, then their secretaries who take the appointment only work in the morning and early afternoon. The sleep lab that I am going to test for sleep apnoe has secretaries that only work mornings. Bank and post office are open every morning but only 2-3 times a week in the afternoon. I don't even work yet find myself struggling with a morning errand once a week minimum. Left to it's own devices my body only wakes up 4-7pm.

    So when you have a day like tomorrow's 8am start ahead how do you get yourself relaxed at night and ready for sleep?...while knowing how sh#$ it is going to feel when you wake up?
     
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  4. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    @redrachel76 - I have a similar problem, though not as bad as you. But I do get a bit anxious when I know I have to get up at a certain time the next day. I take a bunch of supplements for sleep, some amino acids and herbs and niacin too, and it all helps.

    But there's one thing that almost always helps me sleep and I take it rarely because taken regularly, it loses its effectiveness - it's the old OTC sleep aid Unisom (or generic), not to be confused with Benadryl. It is an antihistamine but different than and way stronger than Benadryl. 1/4 of a Unisom tablet will get me through the night (together with everything else I take). I took it once for 10 days or 2 weeks, can't remember which, but by the end of that period the 1/4 tablet no longer did it. I didn't want to increase my dose so I stopped it, and just use it in a pinch now.

    So you might try Unisom when you absolutely have to get a halfway decent night's sleep. It might do the trick for you.

    I also regularly take melatonin, 5-htp, lots of magnesium, inositol, glycine, l-theanine, niacin, gotu kola and magnolia bark. It's ridiculous but I seem to need this and I have very low tolerance for prescription drugs. And I recently added in a kava kava tincture too. Sometimes taurine can help though sometimes it has the opposite effect.

    At one time I had high nighttime cortisol which caused severe insomnia. I was given Seriphos (phosphorylated serine, NOT phosphatidyl serine) and it worked great. I learned it was best to take it in the morning because of the circadian rhythm. It didn't make me sleepy in the morning but I felt calmer during the day and it helped with sleep at night. I had to experiment to find the right dose. When I first took it I used it at night, and it caused a horrible weird insomnia when I took it at night. But it worked great in the morning.
     
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  5. Wolfcub

    Wolfcub Senior Member

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    Yes I also have delayed sleep phase syndrome and have had that tendency for many years even when I was fit and well and strong with not a thing wrong.

    It cannot be helped, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. It is said that some of us are wired that way. Apparently we "night owls" were useful at one time to keep watch (caveman-time!)over the others for dangers and predators in the night....well I have heard that but don't know how true that theory is.

    But anyway DSPS people sleep quite healthily and normally when left alone. They have good sleep. They are just sleeping like your average teenagers. Unfortunately they don't fit in with social norms! (early to bed, early to rise stuff, and morning appointments!)
    One thing it is NOT is "insomnia", and shouldn't be treated as insomnia. Insomnia cures will not work.

    I can usually soldier on with 5-6 hours sleep if a morning arrangement cannot be avoided. I am tired but manage.
    But I always arrange afternoon appointments whenever possible, just to make life sweeter.

    My DSPS isn't so severe. I wake usually between 9am and 11. Never sleep until afternoon.
     
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  6. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    I tried all of these but none helped. Or like melatonin and generic unisom, they helped at first then stopped helping.

    I suppose it would do no harm to try them again but this time juggle them at different times with different brands. The Seriphos thing you have written is worth thinking about.
     
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  7. RebeccaRe

    RebeccaRe Moose Enthusiast

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    I try to read at night before bed to try and occupy my mind and relax. I have a Kindle that's backlit, so I can turn out all of my lights and then just read until I fall asleep. If I don't have the energy to read, I find that listening to music also helps keep my mind occupied. These strategies don't always work, but they do help quiet my brain (or at least make enough noise so that my brain can't listen to itself be anxious) so I can relax and get to sleep a little more easily.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  8. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member

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    Your lack of sleep is caused by anxiety. How long did you try the sleep hygiene ? For me it took about 12-18 months to work. You just have to keep at it even if it doesn’t seem to work. Habits take a long time to change, and retraining the brain takes time too.

    Also, you need the right meds to help you sleep. It took me 3 years to find the right ones. Now I have 2 + 2 sleeping aids that I alternate, to avoid being hooked. The combo sleep hygiene + meds/sleeping aids now works about 80% of the time. When my anxiety is high, it still helps, but insomnia kicks in, although not as much as before.

    Do you want to compare sleep hygiene ?
     
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  9. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    If you can, it would be very good to have your cortisol levels checked. The adrenal stress index test is very good, it uses 4 saliva samples taking during the day/evening to map your cortisol curve. Most doctors will only do a morning blood draw to test cortisol, which is not enough information. When my cortisol was high at night, nothing would touch that insomnia until I got my cortisol levels normalized. And once that happened, then the other stuff started to help. And the Seriphos worked pretty quickly as I recall.

    One more thing - a few months ago a hair analysis showed that my calcium/magnesium ratio was very badly skewed in favor of calcium. I was advised to stop my calcium supplement, at least temporarily, which I did. Plus I almost doubled my magnesium, and started taking it before bed and in the middle of the night, and it improved my sleep almost immediately. I'd never come across the calcium/magnesium ratio as being a factor in sleep before.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  10. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Here is what helped my delayed sleep phase. Mine was so bad that I had no regular day/night pattern. My sleep kept moving forward a half hour to an hour per day. This went on for years until I learned one simple tip.

    I have to avoid all blue light in the evening. All computer type screens emit blue light with tells your body to wake up. So that's computers, laptops, tablets, phones and possibly even tv.

    I get off the computer by 7pm in the winter and 8pm in the summer. A software program that makes the screen amber or amber colored glasses don't work for me.

    Maybe there is something else going on with EMFs keeping me awake or maybe it's just the stimulation of sitting up and using the computer; I'm not sure.
     
  11. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    I have done this test. the cortisol is very high at night and the lowest at 7am and morning.
    It also feels that way.
    All naturopathic doctors I have been to here have no problem doing that test. (Is it Metametrix among others?)
    When it comes to treating it the problems starts. Either they have thrown me on rhodiola or some that does nothing or do sleep hygiene and "get in the sun" ..or just have no idea.
     
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  12. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    Does that mean no old fashioned kindle, with the non LED display?
    Do you use ordinary lightbulbs?
    Or was just stopping TV, tablets phones and all computers enough?
     
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  13. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Okay, I think there's a good chance Seriphos might help you then, at least with your high night time cortisol and insomnia - it was a lifesaver for me.

    Re my adrenals in general - around 1993 a chiropractor who does muscle testing found that my adrenals were quite weak. I was physically weak as a kitten at that time. He gave me Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process and I had to take as I recall 3 x the recommended dose because I was so weak, and within a few days my energy started to come back. I've taken adrenal glandulars off and on ever since, but don't need nearly as much. My issues with high night time cortisol and subsequent insomnia came some 10 or 11 years later and that's when I started the Seriphos. I don't think rhodiola or one of those herbs would have been enough support for my adrenals.
     
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  14. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    I tried the sleep hygiene for a month to 6 weeks. My sleep timing seemed to get worse on it the longer I was doing it. I was frightened of a major crash.

    I am a bit suspicious that it was as much your meds than the sleep hygiene that helped. I can't imagine the sleep hygiene alone being enough to help.
    What do you mean do you want to compare sleep hygiene?
    Is there a website or page where everything you did for 12-18 months is written down?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  15. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    This sounds like me.

    So let me see if I understand you. You took Seriphos in the morning. Do you remember what dose you started with?
    Or did you just start on the smallest dose that supplement comes in?

    Also what do you mean by take Seriphos in the morning?
    Do you mean real morning or your body's morning? -which in my case is 2pm-4pm

    Didn't the Drenatrophin wake you up?
    What time did you take that?

    I think Seriphos will probably be enough to try alone for me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  16. redrachel76

    redrachel76 Senior Member

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    I once went with my caregivers to a place called La Gomera which is an isolated island off Tenerife.

    The flight there and back was horrifically hard for me. The only reason I went there was that it was/is one of the most unpolluted places in Europe. I was recommended it as a place to help my allergies.

    I did get rid of all my sinus allergies but unexpectedly it was the only time in my life that my sleep timing problems disappeared.

    It was 2005 and you could not use a mobile phone easily and also no computers where we were staying.

    It took a few days to one week for the sleep problems to go. The rest of the CFS problems like unrefreshing sleep, painful muscles, bowel problems exhaustion etc...stayed the same. Just the sleep timing resolved.

    Maybe there is something in EMFs effecting the biological clock. The problem is that unless you can go somewhere really isolated, it is impossible to avoid them
     
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  17. Wolfcub

    Wolfcub Senior Member

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    I definitely believe that some people can be highly sensitive to EMFs. And the blue light screen things. I'm not particularly as far as I'm aware, and my delayed sleep phase started way before such things were commonplace anyway. No computers/mobile phones in those days! Just the light of the Moon.
    But EMFs in my opinion, do us no good. We are beings with an electro-magnetic field naturally, and disruptions may affect some people very much.

    I would say definitely switch off ALL routers, computers, laptops, smartphones, ordinary mobile phones, etc before sleeping! That means switching off at the power source.
    I was picking up EMF interference in my bedroom with my router switched on (which is quite a distance from my router downstairs) When I switched it off at the power, -silence.

    Magnesium does also help natural sleep.

    But like I said before, some delay in sleep phase may be just "you" and not anything to be afraid of or upset about (within reason of course). If other people don't like it, tell them you also don't like their habit of getting up at 5am!! I accept myself and the way I am, so long as I don't feel unwell, and can manage to get to those unsociable-hours appointments when I absolutely have to!

    Get to be an old bat like me and you will do your own thing haha
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    No "daylight" bulbs as those are blue. Regular lightbulbs are ok.

    I'm not sure about the kindle as I don't own one.
     
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  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    That is very interesting, and a good clue.

    The worst EMFs are the ones closest to you, i.e. in your home and thus in your control.

    There is a simple test you can do, which is turn off the breakers to your bedroom at night. The suggestion I've heard is to try it for 3 nights and see if you sleep any better.

    It would also be good to turn off your router at night if you have one as that is a major source of EMFs.
     
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  20. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    I can't remember exactly, but I know I started low, probably 100 or 200 mg (1 - 2 capsules), which didn't do much and over a period of several days (as I recall), I worked up to 8 capsules, or 800 mg. I took this in 2 doses on an empty stomach, 4 capsules when I first got up and 4 late morning before lunch. This a very high dose and I really don't recommend starting with that - I've read about people reacting strongly to 1 o 2 capsules. We're all different. After a few months on that dose I started getting extra tired and realized my cortisol was dropping too low so I cut my dose.

    I don't have delayed circadian rhythm, so morning for me is 8:00 a.m. I don't know how Seriphos will work with you, I'd forgotten about your delayed circadian rhythm.

    So your cortisol was found to be very high at night - do you mean regular night time for most people, or your night time? In any event, I think you will just have to experiment. I'm wondering if your high night time cortisol (assuming you mean the night time most people have) might have something to do with your delayed circadian rhythm. High cortisol at night is extremely disturbing to sleep. I read that melatonin has been used successfully by some people to help reset their circadian rhythm, but i'm sure you've looked into this.

    But maybe if Seriphos helps normalize your cortisol levels, it might help your delayed sleep. At least it would be worth a try I think.

    When I first started it I took it 3 x a day, breakfast, lunch and dinner. I was a lot less attuned to my body then and don't really know if it affected my sleep, but I do know my energy picked up markedly. Now when I need (and it's a generally a low dose, 1 or 2 tablets) I'll take it with breakfast and lunch and this doesn't interfere with my sleep.
     
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