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Too much ADB12, not enough folate/MB12? Detox?

Messages
19
Here's the (kind of) quick version: I started methylation about 5 months ago (early May) and I've had some ups and downs. I started on 1mg MB12, and 1 tablet of Thorne B-12 Complex. Some mild energy gains but nothing major.

But, in mid-July, I slowly started adding in ADB12 (Source Naturals Dibencozide). This is where it gets interesting: within hours of my first mini-dose, I got red, itchy spots on my cuticles. I thought maybe this was my immune system coming back online, and thus a good sign. But maybe a week later, as I upped the dosage to around 2mg/day, I got what I thought was food poisoning (so bad I spent around 4 days running to the toilet), followed by a cold with lots of coughing and mucus that lasted about 2 weeks.

I haven't upped my MB12 above 1mg/day, mainly because of concerns the late Rich Van Konynenburg raised about mercury. But I wanted to keep pushing forward, so in early August I upped the ADB12 to one full tablet (9mg) every other day, and actually cut down the MB12 to every few days. Added in 400mcg of folate as well.

I felt great at first, good enough to actually go to the gym for the first time in years, pushed myself, and crashed. I was exhausted and could barely stay awake - pushed myself again a few weeks later and have spent most of the last two months really tired. In late September, I caught another cold and am still coughing up a lot of mucus. Some other weird symptoms (excessive sweating, dizziness, heart palpitations) have popped up as well. The last few days have been quite good, but I'm still a bit uncomfortable with what's going on. Is this detox, or folate deficiency? Am I taking too much ADB12? Not enough folate? Not enough MB12?

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EXTRA INFO:

So, these are the symptoms I've had since starting methylation, all of them really just since I upped the ADB12 and lowered MB12:

Rashes/itchy red spots on fingers, arms, back
Diarrhea
Fatigue
Muscle cramps
Sore throat and cough
Swollen lymph nodes under armpits
Significantly worse BO
Feeling hot/sweaty (I got a massage and I was soaked afterwards)
Heart palpitations
Some dizziness (an old symptom)

But of course, I have to note that there have been moments of incredible energy as well.

My methylation stack is currently this:
1mg B12 Infusion
1 capsule Thorne B Complex #12
400 mcg Solgar metafolin
4-4.5mg Source Naturals Dibencozide (ADB12) per day (one 9mg tablet every 2 days)

I also take a multivitamin that does contain 400mcg of folic acid, adrenal glanduar, pantethine, Vit C, Glutamine, Zinc carnosine, pharmacy bought cal/mag supp, and maca root.

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Basically, I need to find a way to safely proceed without these ups and downs. I just started a serious relationship, I'm going to be moving multiple times in the coming months and I just can't have these kinds of fluctuations. My baseline was very good - more than good enough for me to have an active and fulfilling life sans exercise. I didn't notice much at first with MB12, but once I upped the ADB12 I did feel really supercharged for a bit, and at times still do. But I want to feel at least as good as I did before on a consistent basis, and not like I'm on a roller coaster.

Sorry for the wordiness. Thanks in advance for any input!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Eastman

Senior Member
Messages
526
Some of your symptoms roughly match Freddd's symptoms for potassium deficiency, others roughly match those for methylfolate deficiency.

When methylation starts working and bring previously numb nerves back to functioning, it can hurt like hell for a while before things improve. Make sure AdoCbl and L-methylfolate are to sufficiency as they both have a large influence on inflammation.
Version 2.12 02/14/2016 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.
Group 2a - Both
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Group 2b – Either or both
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms.
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
 
Messages
19
Hi - thanks for the response.

I've wondered about those as well. I am currently unsure if it's better to try and push forward and balance out any deficiencies or imbalances with what I'm currently taking, or stop the methylation protocol and return to baseline, then possibly start out again much more carefully.

Right now I'm planning to start taking MB12 and ADB12 in a more balanced ratio - it appears most people take more MB12 than ADB12, whereas I've been taking heaps more ADB12 than MB12. I wonder if that could be a factor here, given my initial response to ADB12. I'm still feeling pretty good overall (energy seems to be getting closer to normal, but I still feel like I'm overheating, a bit dizzy and coughing a lot), but as I said, I'm quite active physically and socially and so I kind of want to return to the fairly consistent "OK" feeling I enjoyed before I started this protocol.

I'm curious what other peoples' experiences have been.
 
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Eastman

Senior Member
Messages
526
I find b12 to be generally stimulating. While you can sometimes alleviate symptoms by supplementing to correct some of the deficiencies that it may induce, an alternative (or perhaps complementary) approach is to just cut back on the amounts taken until symptoms subside/stabilise.

In case you haven't seen it, the thread Start Low and Go Slow has a good discussion on this approach.