To vaccinate or not me and my children

[Eeyore]

When you ingest Vitamin D, you can take it as D2 (found in some vitamins and many fortified foods like milk). Vitamin D3 is bioidentical to the D that humans make when we get sun.. D2 is called ergocalciferol, and D3 is called cholecalciferol. They are so named because ergocalciferol is synthesized by fungi (from ergosterol, the fungus version of cholesterol) and cholecalciferol is synthesized from cholesterol (the animal version of the fungal ergosterol).

Mostly, if you supplement, you'll find Vit D3 nowadays and it's probably a good idea to use it. The main issue is that it's not vegan - it's made from lanolin usually.

Once in the body, cholecalciferol is hydroxylated in the liver to form 25-hydroxycholecalciferol. This is then hydroxylated in the kidney to form 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol. This last one is the active ingredient. If your kidneys do not function, you can't do this - so your doc would give you calcitriol (same thing) and bypass it. Otherwise, your parathyroid hormone would shoot up and pull most of the calcium out of your bones (which would be bad).

If you have normal kidney and liver function you should not need calcitriol. The body will make it as needed from the stores of vitamin D3 that you consumed or made by sitting in the sun.

 

[Sushi]

Are there two types of vitamin D tests!

Yep, 2 tests. As @Eeyore mentioned:

Once in the body, cholecalciferol is hydroxylated in the liver to form 25-hydroxycholecalciferol. This is then hydroxylated in the kidney to form 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol. This last one is the active ingredient.

But the standard test most docs will order is 25-hydroxycholecalciferol.

 

[Deepwater]

Personally would keep kids away from vaccines. I had intermittent ME type problems for 20 years after glandular fever until a holiday vaccine for something I was highly unlikely to have caught. The day after the vaccination I was very ill and have never recovered in all the 20+ years since. I am now moderate/ severe, with a lot of muscle and joint pain, dizziness, insomnia, cognitive problems, etc. I now wish I'd never had my kids vaccinated and hope they never have another vaccine as long as they live. I would certainly say keep your children away from vaccines with mercury or aluminium adjuvants (the one that did for me had aluminium adjuvant) as these have been linked in many recent scientific papers to onset of autoimmune disease.
Incidentally, I have learned that in Japan they have stopped the MMR because they have found it linked with unacceptably high levels of vaccine damage. Unfortunately there are, as with ME denial itself, powerful interest groups denying that vaccines can ever hurt anybody. Perhaps my experience is rare, but when you start asking people with ME what sparked it, vaccination actually seems to be a common trigger.

 

[Eeyore]

I think you have to keep it all in context. Most honest doctors will tell you that vaccines, like any medical procedure or medication, carry some degree of risk. That's why we no longer vaccinate against smallpox - the risk is unacceptably high for a disease that has been eradicated. What doctors do is to calculate the morbidity associated with vaccinating no one and with vaccinating everyone - and they then decide based on that whether people should be vaccinated. They cannot (yet) predict ahead of time who will or will not get bad effects from vaccines.

Because I have personally had bad reactions more than once (always to inactivated vaccines with aluminum adjuvants - never to live attenuated like MMR), I will only get them when 1) no live attenuated version is available and 2) it's a disease I could realistically be exposed to and represents significant danger to me or others with whom I am in contact.

I would definitely get an MMR. If you don't there is a very good chance of getting measles, mumps, or rubella, which can lead to serious neurologic damage, sterility (especially in males), birth defects in pregnant women, death, and other problems - and these are highly infectious diseases. One kid with measles coughs in a doctor's office and that room is highly infectious all day - it remains airborne. Not only that, but many pediatricians will not see kids w/o MMR shots (if they have reached MMR age) because it poses too much risk to the children who are there, and who are too young to get the shot. So you end up at one of the few pediatricians who will see these kids - with all the other parents and kids who didn't get vaccines. i.e. You're surrounded by people much more likely to be infectious. Measles is one of those illnesses that is much more severe than people realize, highly preventable, and incredibly infectious. On the other hand, you dont' stand much chance of your 3 yr old getting HPV from sitting in a doctor's office with another kid who didn't get the shot (who also is very likely to have come in contact with it at that age).

I'd like to see any info you have on Japan stopping the MMR. That doesn't make sense and I'm skeptical that it's correct. The MMR is one of the safest. I've had it like 4? times and never reacted as it is a live attenuated vaccine. A lot of unnecessary concern has sadly gone into the MMR because of the fraudulent publications (which were retracted) of a former UK physician (he lost his license for unethical behavior and forging trial results for compensation). His name was Andrew Wakefield I think. It started the whole vaccine/autism thing - which science has continued to refute. The evidence is now overwhelming that vaccines do not cause autism. I know one autistic kid - ironically her parents are anti-vaxxers, so she never got any vaccines!

I think that in general, everyone should be vaccinated unless there is specific information about that person that suggests otherwise. The calculations about vaccines are based on general population stats. If an individual has had a bad reaction to a particular vaccine, then you may need to reevaluate the risks and benefits of that vaccine, or similar ones, in that person (only).

One flaw in many people's thinking is that live attenuated are more dangerous - I don't think this is true. We are all exposed to weak, relatively harmless viruses every day. Most of them our body defeats before they ever become clinically noticeable. The attenuated strains are so attenuated that they are less dangerous than a mild cold. Live attenuated don't need adjuvants because they are replication compentent and make so many (attenuated) viral particles.

Unfortunately, I think science has taken a wrong turn. Scientists have been avoiding live attenuated in favor of recombinant VLP vaccines, where genes from viruses to viral capsids or other proteins are transfected into bacteria. So these aren't even dead viruses - they're non-infectious pieces of virus - not whole viruses and not replication-competent (not even close, they might have, say, 2-3 out of 100+ necessary components, and the have no DNA/RNA). It sounds good, but these vaccines don't work as well practically. Just as the Sabin vaccine for polio was found more effective than the earlier Salk vaccine (the Sabin is live attenuated, the Salk is inactivated), live attenuated vaccines create greater immunity with fewer doses and fewer side effects. This is sort of a blind spot in science now where we assume newer is better, despite the evidence. One of the biggest problems is that the vaccines based on VLP's often do not work at all - just look at the failed attempts for vaccines to herpes viruses. None of the recombinant vaccines has worked yet. However, we've had a safe and effective vaccine against chicken pox for many years now (which is a herpes virus - HHV3).

The exception to that rule is when there is a single base pair mutation making it attenuated, so that there is a chance that randomly it will revert to its more virulent original form - but the only one that I know of like this is smallpox, which is no longer given. That is also why smallpox vaccines were more dangerous. If you look at modern live attenuated vaccines that are still used, they delete entire proteins - there's no way the virus will randomly make an entire protein (or several) to become virulent again - odds are effectively 0 of it ever happening anywhere to anyone.

The other interesting area of development in vaccines that I think has a great deal of promise is what are called replication deficient / replication incompetent vaccines. These invade cells, and tell the cells to start making pieces of virus. These then get presented to the immune system throuogh MHC1 proteins via the ubiquitin-proteosome system and an immune response is formed. However, a few key components are deleted, so no functional virus can ever be assembled and there is no potential for the illness developing This could be a very good approach. I don't think any are in clinical use yet, but a few are being developed, I think against HSV2 and CMV.

 

[Deepwater]

This is a brief history of Japan's experiment with MMR: http://yournewswire.com/why-did-japan-ban-mmr-vaccine/

So the kids are vaccinated separately against measles and rubella. My son lives in Japan and has children over there, incidentally.

There's a lot of confusing (to me) argument relating to MMR. I understand that, as currently given, it does not contain mercury, but I am not clear about the original formulation - perhaps someone can help with this. Also, because it affected my family at the time it was introduced I well recall that the UK policy was to give it in a single large dose, whereas other countries were spreading the load over three doses - the controversy was at least as much about that as about mixing the different vaccines together. Now in the UK, from what I understand, kids receive a booster shot later on. So is the MMR as originally rolled out in the UK comparable to what UK kids are receiving now? Just ignorant questions, but my experience has taught me to be on constant alert for moving goalposts.

I do believe harms with vaccines are probably grossly under-reported. For instance, I'm quite certain the harm to me from the Havrix A Monodose has never been officially reported - why should it be if ME is an imaginary illness? When my mother's elderly friend died from sudden heart attack two days after flu shot she (a retired nurse) advised him against having because he wasn't properly over a chest infection, was that reported? Bet you it wasn't as his doctor had urged him to go ahead and have the shot. As regards children, if they don't develop normally how can parents prove why, particularly if their family doctors are convinced the vaccines they have received are harmless?

 

[barbc56]

If you are worried about mercury, adjuncts, etc. then getting separate vaccines exposes you to more of this.

The measles vaccine in Japan was a bad batch and had already been pulled from other countries.

Interestingly, the Autism rate continued to rise. Unfortunately, because of the gap in vaccinations. Unfortunately, Japan has had numerous epidemics for the age group who were not vaccinated during this time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763

Edit Missed the citation about the Japan vaccination.

 

[morse27]

Hi Nina

I attach some general information on vaccines and ME/CFS below

I'm afraid there isn't usually a simple yes/no answer to questions about specific vaccines - it really depends on your state of health, why you are thinking of having a particular vaccine, and the risk of catching the infection you are going to be protected against

On a personal basis, I have ME/CFS and would not go abroad to a country where there is a significant degree of risk from hepatitis A without this protection. So when I was planning a trip to India I had all the recommended vaccinations (making sure they were spaced out well in advance of my trip and not done when I was having any flu like symptoms). I did not have any problems with hepatitis A. And as you can see from the MEA survey below, this is not a vaccine that is regularly reported to cause problems for people with ME/CFS

General information on vaccines and ME/CFS

Anecdotal evidence indicates that a number of vaccinations are occasionally capable of either triggering ME/CFS, or causing an exacerbation of pre-existing symptoms, and the UK CMO Working Group report acknowledged (in section 3.3.2) that vaccinations can occasionally act as a trigger factor in the development of ME/CFS.

The CMO report can be e-accessed using the document archive on the MEA website: www.meassociation.org.uk

The link is biologically plausible but there hasn't been any really robust research carried out to investigate the role of vaccinations as immune system stressors in the causation of ME/CFS.

Two fairly recent published reports of interest relate to an MHRA review of HPV vaccine (Cervarix) and ME/CFS >>

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/NewsCentre/Pressreleases/CON316330

and two case reports re Swine Flu vaccine and ME/CFS:

http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...accination-bmj-rapid-responses-21-march-2014/

I have a longstanding interest in the role of vaccinations in ME/CFS and my patient evidence on the subject, which is now quite substantial and includes a number of health workers who were vaccinated almost as a condition of employment, indicates that hepatitis B vaccine appears to play an unusual and significant role here

This is supported by the results of the MEA website poll on the roll of vaccinations as trigger factors for ME/CFS (see below)

The MEA has an information leaflet which summaries the research evidence relating to vaccinations and ME/CFS.

Similar information is summarised and referenced on page 41 of the MEA purple booklet.

MEA WEBSITE POLL:

• 
  If your ME/CFS was triggered by a vaccination, which vaccine was involved?
  • Hepatitis B (57%, 338 Votes)
    
    
  • Flu (9%, 51 Votes)
    
    
  • Other (7%, 41 Votes)
    
    
  • BCG (6%, 33 Votes)
    
    
  • Cannot remember (5%, 31 Votes)
    
    
  • Combination (5%, 27 Votes)
    
    
  • Tetanus (3%, 18 Votes)
    
    
  • Meningitis (3%, 17 Votes)
    
    
  • MMR (2%, 14 Votes)
    
    
  • Polio (2%, 10 Votes)
    
    
  • Hepatitis A (1%, 7 Votes)
    
    
  • Typhoid (0%, 4 Votes)
    
    
    Total Voters: 591

Start Date: April 30, 2010 @ 3:20 pm
End Date: June 2, 2010 @ 3:20 pm

all is true !! i'm a victim of H1N1 FLU vaccine in winter 2009 , since 1990 all vaccines contain adjuvant and can induce all autoimmune diseases.
the balance benefice /risk is not positive for all
I regret every day that bad decision,
I will not be sick for six years and for life

 

[morse27]

I would agree with barbc56. I don't think there is solid evidence for an immune defect in ME/CFS but if there was it would be a good reason to vaccinate if anything. A defective immune system is the main reason why we DO vaccinate people with diabetes or after spleen removal etc.

the role of vaccines with adjuvants is clearly established in the emmergence of autoimmune diseases, explained by yehuda Shoenfeld in his latest medical book
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1002/9781118663721

 

[Deepwater]

If you are worried about mercury, adjuncts, etc. then getting separate vaccines exposes you to more of this.

The measles vaccine in Japan was a bad batch.

Edit Missed the citation about the Japan vaccination.

I just put in a link to a brief article. If you want to look up the Japanese vaccination schedule, you can easily find it online.
Yes, the vaccine lobby, in the West at least, said they'd been using a bad mumps vaccine (not measles). But as I understand it they did try again later with a different mumps vaccine that was supposed to be safe, but said they got the same problems.
So it's now MR vaccine over there rather than MMR. You can volunteer to have mumps if you want.
The system over there is different in that people are fined for not giving their kids the recommended vaccines. The flip side of that for the authorities is that compensation for vaccine damage is taken more seriously.

 

[morse27]

exact and GARDASIL vaccine for HPV in japan is no longer recommended because explosion of cases of young japanese girls dead or paralyzed immediately after injection HPV vaccine with adjuvant GARDASIL or CERVARIX

 

[barbc56]

the role of vaccines with adjuvants is clearly established in the emmergence of autoimmune diseases, explained by yehuda Shoenfeld in his latest medical book
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1002/9781118663721

This is a myth. If true then anyone who's ever eaten a tuna fish sandwich would be autistic or have the conditions described in the above book.

I would recommend this book.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/deadly-choices-paul-a-offit/1023499546?ean=9780465057962&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Core Shopping Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP648&k_clickid=3x648

 

[morse27]

in all countries of the world,
engrave side effects of vaccines are deliberately unreported or underreported,
how many ME patients became sick ??
thousands as this disease is not demonstrable in the same way as the gulf war syndrom caused by the adjuvant squalene vaccines,
similar disease as EM but different in severity and few symptoms do not overlap,
Nancy Klimas has demonstrated differences in cytokines between these diseases,
for EM a TH1 and TH2 (single activation of the adaptive system)
for GWS for a TH1 and TH17 (activation of innate and adaptive system)

it is still difficult for expert physicians to discern both diseases

 

[morse27]

sorry this is not a myth,
I have experienced this disease GWS 11days after injection,
and I'm not the only one in Europe to have known this
in USA .you have received only good vaccines without adjuvants and European people received the shit mericans to mention GSK Pandemrix
As we are not concerned one can believe this is nevertheless a truth,
the book of yehuda Shoenfeld, I said he is one of the largest five scientists in the world,
but he has no conflict of interest with laboratories and said truth

 

[Eeyore]

I would guess vaccine adverse effects are overreported and underreported - that is to say, many adverse effects are not connected with the vaccines, and many unrelated problems are falsely attributed, due to timing, to the vaccine.

It's interesting that Japan has split up the MMR into separate vaccines. I'm not sure there's a good argument for that really - it may have something to do with the period of time before the autism theory was fully debunked - but getting them separately is not likely to be a problem - you still get coverage. Mumps is really bad in boys as it often causes lifetime sterility and has no treatment once you get it.

They've generally been removing mercury from vaccines because it causes concern among parents, although study after study has failed to find any problems associated with thimerosal. However, they've found alternatives. Also it's not used in single dose vaccines, only in multi-dose vials as a preservative. It's not hard to avoid it.

Not all vaccines use adjuvants. Live attenuated vaccines just give a very mild infection, less than a cold - because those viruses can replicate, they don't need adjuvants. There are some vaccines that are available in both types (e.g. polio, Salk vs Sabin vaccine, the latter being live attenuated). Unfortunately I think people who are sensitive to vaccination for some reason (perhaps some ME patients - although not all) tend to assume the dead, inactivated vaccine is safer when in reality it's the opposite (I don't have a study showing that, but I believe the problem comes from the adjuvants, which upregulate the immune system).

Overall, I do think vaccines are safe, and I think they are among the greatest achievements of modern medicine. So many lives are saved and so much disability and morbidity is avoided by the use of vaccines. We live in a world without smallpox, and in which we don't have to fear polio, measles, hepb, and numerous other major killers of the past. It's not that vaccines are inherently unsafe, it's that a few of us have abnormal immune systems or genetic defects so that we react abnormally. It's more like peanuts - they're not intrinsically unsafe, but for some people, they are very unsafe. It doesn't mean that no one should eat peanuts. Also, unlike peanuts, which just taste good, vaccines save countless lives - including the lives of many who do not get them through a phenomenon known as herd immunity. I think a lot of people whose ME is triggered by a vaccine would have had it triggered anyways by something else - the inborn tendency was always there just waiting. Hopefully someday we will be able to test for it in advance.

I have gotten all my vaccines. I got a full schedule as a child in the 70's and 80's and had no adverse effects. My ME was not triggered by a vaccine, although a few times they caused relapses. I don't ignore the dangers of the diseases I'm protecting against either. I even got optional vaccines (hepa, hepb, hpv, meningitis) because I don't want those illnesses.

 

[Deepwater]

This is a myth. If true then anyone who's ever eaten a tuna fish sandwich would be autistic or have the conditions described in the above book.

I would recommend this book.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/deadly-choices-paul-a-offit/1023499546?ean=9780465057962&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Core Shopping Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP648&k_clickid=3x648

There's a huge difference between ingesting toxins into the digestive tract and injecting them into the muscles. It's a completely false analogy.( Having said that, I have now stopped using aluminium foil - seems about as daft as sprinkling your food with powdered lead.) Try doing a search on Pub Med if you want a better understanding of the issues with vaccine adjuvants - I'm not a scientist. I assume you have not personally been vaccine damaged but if there's one day in my life I would rerun if I could it's a particular day in October 1992. Would I rather have died from tetanus aged 20 or live with what I now have? Quite honestly, the former.
Something is causing the huge increase in autoimmune disease. Maybe more than one thing. But the levels are getting truly frightening and some families seem more at risk than others.

 

[Eeyore]

I do think there can potentially be problems associated with the injection of aluminum salts as adjuvants. Not in most people - but in people with a preexisting defect or vulnerability of some type. This doesn't mean aluminum foil is dangerous. There are several reasons for this - the main one is that the body has ways of not absorbing aluminum from the digestive tract. Additionally, aluminum (elemental) is much less easily absorbed than aluminum salts (used in adjuvants).

I actually suspect (but cannot prove) that a low iron state may play a role in how we react to aluminum. When iron is low, the body will try to absorb and use more of it. It has been shown in numerous papers (can dig them up if you like) that Al ions (which are also 3+, like ferric iron) can bind many of the same proteins and alter their function - proteins that wouldn't be expressed if not iron deficient. I've often wondered if the large number of young girls who seem got get ME and POTS - who are shown to be low iron in many cases - do so because after menarche, they have a greater chance of being iron deficient. I think it would be interesting to study this hypothesis - I wonder if aluminum adjuvants cause problems significantly more often in the iron deficient?

The above is theory, not fact (yet) - so take it as such. However, if I needed a vaccine, I'd probably make sure my ferritin was 50-75 or higher. Peole with hereditary hemochromatosis might also be more susceptible as their body cannot shut off the normal mechanisms for absorbing iron.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

the role of vaccines with adjuvants is clearly established in the emmergence of autoimmune diseases, explained by yehuda Shoenfeld in his latest medical book
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1002/9781118663721

Dear old Yehuda, bless his cotton socks, has been selling dodgy theories of autoimmunity since at least 1985 to my knowledge. He can talk the hind legs off a donkey but I don't remember him ever discovering anything.

 

[barbc56]

I'm not saying that vaccines never have side effects because they do. It's basically a risk vs. benefit situation.

On the whole, the chance of an adverse reaction to vaccinations is very very small. You're more likely to be struck by lightning.

Any adverse effects are awful for that person and I wouldn't wish this to happen to anyone. But you take a risk every time you leave your house and sometimes you don't even have to leave the house for something bad to happen.

Vaccines have virtually wiped out many diseases that are deadly. Unfortunately, some of these preventable diseases are making a comeback.

I can't even think how awful it would feel getting any illness on top of me/cfs.

 

[Deepwater]

Yes, I'm concerned this debate doesn't polarise. Indeed most people do seem okay with most vaccines, though the possible cumulative effect on the immune system of large numbers of immunisations in a complicating factor. The problem is that, because since about 1990 there has been a tendency for the official channels to deny pretty much vaccine damage altogether (wasn't like that when I was a kid), vaccines are no longer withheld from vulnerable people - in fact the already sick seem to have become the main target of them.

I don't know what made me vulnerable to the aluminium salts. Clearly my immune system could have been better as I had chronic Epstein Barr problems (which also, miraculously, started to be denied as a medical possibility about the same time) and quite a few allergies. I am also, like a lot of PwME, hypermobile (i.e. dodgy collagen), although this was not diagnosed until 2 years ago. And, yes, I may have been iron deficient as I had very heavy periods back then (sorry, guys).

There was probably also autoimmune disease in the family since my dad's sister had some illness after TB that left her wheelchair bound with odd jerky movements - she was initially diagnosed with Huntingdon's despite no family history, but the doctors who later looked after her said the diagnosis was wrong - recalling those movements I believe it was Parkinson's she had (looking online I see that Parkinson's and Huntingdon's are easily confused in early stages). Perhaps all these things played their part.

But until the reality of vaccine/ adjuvant damage is faced by the scientific community the risk factors will not be identified and the risks will therefore not be managed - vulnerable people such as myself will continue to be offered vaccines that may not even be necessary (go somewhere safe on holiday, for instance), and then when we get sick we will continue to be ignored or derided and told to keep quiet about it in the mistaken belief that this is how one avoids a vaccine scare.

Since we don't currently know which people with ME are at risk from vaccines and which aren't, it would just seem sensible to me for all PwME and their families to think hard about which vaccines they really need.

 

[morse27]

Dear old Yehuda, bless his cotton socks, has been selling dodgy theories of autoimmunity since at least 1985 to my knowledge. He can talk the hind legs off a donkey but I don't remember him ever discovering anything.

I will send your message on yehuda Shoenfeld email , I think he will much appreciate your comment.

Also I do not understand why your colleague Doc Shepherd of London Strongly believes that some vaccines have triggered ME / CFS in people in good health and that you are completely refractory ??

I put doctors in two categories, those who have conflicts of interest that vaccination continues because they earns them money (by laboratories (8000 euros per year, and public health agencies in France 20 vaccines prescribed reports by CPAM 140 euros and 23 euros for consultation and who scoff totally destroy the life of healthy people, studies of RHEVAB in france says 40% of new patients with auto immune diseases are triggered by vaccine with adjuvant) and those who are not interested ,stop there to vaccinate because they have among their patients as victims me and others,
during their doctoral only 3 hours is devoted to the principle of vaccination,
no reflection is made on the risk to excite the immune system with adjuvants and possible consequences.
no independent study has ever been made on the action of adjuvants may cause autoimmune diseases!
precision to one who spoke without knowing about the mercury in tuna! mercury is not involved in diseases after vaccines
, it is not either an adjuvant of immunity.

squalene is without any problems when it is ingested by the digestive tract, which is not the case when it is injected into a muscle directly into the workings of the immune cells, this causes a mimetic process destroying fat cells C30H50 existing in humans in the brain and other organs, causing the gulf war syndrom .It is easy to deny what we do not know and refer to vacinal dogma, but when it is you who are the victim that n is the same. yehuda Shoenfeld immunologist is the only to have the courage to denounce what everyone knows but internist is silent for fear of losing his right to practice lawyers face major laboratories. his doctors have broken their oath of Hippocrates by agreeing to harm the health of patients

http://initiativecitoyenne.be/
website of many européans with vaccine injury

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/mar/30/vaxxed-robert-de-niro-tribeca-film-festival

de niro wants to says truth about autism and MMR vacine but big pharma make pressure and threat of jail

otherwise continue to get vaccinated, I'm sure someone in your family will be a victim, statistics show that less than 2% of vaccinees have a disease, so go there gaily more people there are and we will be caught seriously, I'm wasting my time after all I have to tell you anything