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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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To support those of us with electromagnetic sensitivity, please act now:

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,660
Location
United Kingdom
That looks like an incredibly poor study. Only four people in it, and the methodology is terrible, more or less just a series of anecdotes. For example:
Studies in this article
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/08/emf-and-type-3-diabetes.aspx

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ivated_mobile_phones_on_fasting_blood_glucose

If any here has blood sugar monitor then could easily test. Turn power circuit breaker off, take reading , turn on near wifi, take reading.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,870

That article I believe refers to the study you cited earlier.


If any here has blood sugar monitor then could easily test. Turn power circuit breaker off, take reading , turn on near wifi, take reading.

Doesn't this idea that EM fields can alter blood sugar levels only apply to diabetics though, so you'd have to find people with diabetes to test it? Even then, it would be hard to test accurately, because day to day variations in physical activity or food consumed will affect blood sugar levels.
 
Messages
3
Do you have any studies which demonstrate that the 15 GHz electromagnetic radiation from 5G is linked to health effects? I note that this study on 5G will start in 2017.

Here is the info I've received:
Scientific publications on mm microwave radiation bioeffects:

Cellular electrodynamics in kHz-THz region:
https://www.trnres.com/ebook/uploads/felscontent/T_143402256010 fels.pdf
Effects on bacteria:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27087527?dopt=Abstract
Effects on skin:
Human Skin as Arrays of Helical Antennas in the Millimeter and Submillimeter Wave Range (PDF Download Available)Fields of the cell:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...15216108aed47facefb302/Fields-of-the-cell.pdf
Resonance effect of low-intensity millimeter waves on the chromatin conformational state of rat thymocytes:
http://zfn.mpdl.mpg.de/data/Reihe_C/49/ZNC-1994-49c-0352.pdf
Research on biological effects of millimeter waves: a review of literature:
www.rife.org


My concern with these bills in congress is (slightly) less to do with the "upgrade" in frequency, and more to do with the increase in density and the decrease in citizens and town's ability to do anything about it. In my town, existing Federal law just prevented anything from being done to stop a call carrier from installing a cell antenna right next to the home of another EM-sensitive person.

I think we need to have a much broader conversation (involving unbiased scientists, people who suffer from EMS, parents, etc). that includes more than lip service to precaution and protection of the public, before wide-spread deployment is given (even more) governmental grease.

I have electrical sensitivity myself... and it is already almost impossible to travel or find a place to live/stay.

Interesting discussion! Please write or call your senators!
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
That does not sound like electrical hypersensitivity, as electric heaters do not emit radio frequency electromagnetic waves. It is more likely you were sensitive to dust or allergens in the the heater. Likewise with cars: cars, especially new ones, have a chemical smell that could trigger allergies. Also, if you travel in a car, you could get motion sickness.

I think there's something wrong with your understanding of what EHS is. One of the key points of my post was that it's not radiowaves that are necessarily the problem.

The things that use the most electricity are the ones that emit the strongest fields. Electric heaters are some of the worst appliances you'll find in your home. Electric blankets are a nightmare for most with EHS because of the force, and the proximity to the body. Although it's far weaker, an infrared sauna bag is still very much a problem for me because of the proximity.

Cars are deceptive in that you're not thinking electricity with them but take a gauss meter into one and you'll see why it's a problem.

Trust me, I'm not mistaking dust and allergens or motion sickness for EHS.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,870
My concern with these bills in congress is (slightly) less to do with the "upgrade" in frequency, and more to do with the increase in density and the decrease in citizens and town's ability to do anything about it. In my town, existing Federal law just prevented anything from being done to stop a call carrier from installing a cell antenna right next to the home of another EM-sensitive person.

I agree that it seems wrong that there is no legal framework that you can use to object to the installation of these antennas.

Though I am not sure one can say that 5G is necessarily going to increase the power level of microwave radiation in the environment; indeed it may do the reverse, and reduce microwave levels a bit. This is because when a cellular phone and base station are in close proximity of a few tens of meters, as they will be in 5G, they can communicate with reduced microwave power levels. Whereas when the base station is hundreds or thousands of meters away, as it is with 3G/4G, higher microwave power levels are required to cover that distance.



I have electrical sensitivity myself... and it is already almost impossible to travel or find a place to live/stay.

Have you performed a blinded test on yourself? You can do this with the aid of a friend, who can switch on or off on random days the appliances in your home that you think may be causing symptoms, but without telling you which days, so that you have no idea of whether the appliance is on or off on a given day. You can do this daily for a few weeks, noting your symptoms each day. If the days of worsened symptoms are later found to correspond with the days that the appliance was turned on by your friend, then this is good evidence for electrical sensitivity.

Even if I suspected that I was electrical sensitivity myself, I would not be satisfied that I really was until I had performed such a blind test, because as the study I mentioned above indicates, even just anxiety about EM radiation is enough to cause symptoms.



I've no doubt there are people who can tell within a couple minutes when they're being exposed. I certainly could.

Likewise, have you performed a blinded test on yourself, as described just above?



What finally helped in a big way was moving out of a toxic house, presumably toxic with mold. My EHS is 5% or less of what it was, it's negligible. Down in Death Valley it was nonexistent. So I'm pretty sure mold played a big part in it for me.

So how do you distinguish between the ill health effects from mold, and from your assumed electrical hypersensitivity?

You felt much worse in a toxic/moldy house, felt better in a mold free environment, but somehow you are putting that down to electrical hypersensitivity rather than mold?



The things that use the most electricity are the ones that emit the strongest fields.

I don't think that is the case. It depends on the nature of the appliance, as well as the power consumed. The small transformer in a 2 Watt cellphone charging power adaptor will produce a far stronger magnetic field around it than a 3000 Watt electric heater.

There are only three ways that electrical or magnetic influences from electrical wires or equipment can travel through space or air:

(1) Electromagnetic waves (eg, radio waves)
(2) Inductive coupling (which you get from the magnetic fields near the transformers in power adaptors)
(3) Capacitive coupling (mains hum buzzing sounds on your music recordings are via capacitive coupling)

An electric fire will not transmit any electromagnetic waves in the form of radio waves (unless there is an electric motor inside it, as sparks from this can create EM waves), it will not have any inductive coupling (unless there is an electric motor inside it, which will cause inductive coupling), and the capacitive coupling it produces will be no greater than any other electric appliance or electrical wiring.
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,660
Location
United Kingdom
That article I believe refers to the study you cited earlier.




Doesn't this idea that EM fields can alter blood sugar levels only apply to diabetics though, so you'd have to find people with diabetes to test it? Even then, it would be hard to test accurately, because day to day variations in physical activity or food consumed will affect blood sugar levels.
Oh, my bad.

No, as far as I understand it applies to everyone.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
Likewise, have you performed a blinded test on yourself, as described just above?

So how do you distinguish between the ill health effects from mold, and from your assumed electrical hypersensitivity?

You felt much worse in a toxic/moldy house, felt better in a mold free environment, but somehow you are putting that down to electrical hypersensitivity rather than mold?

I don't think that is the case. It depends on the nature of the appliance, as well as the power consumed. The small transformer in a 2 Watt cellphone charging power adaptor will produce a far stronger magnetic field around it than a 3000 Watt electric heater.

There are only three ways that electrical or magnetic influences from electrical wires or equipment can travel through space or air:

(1) Electromagnetic waves (eg, radio waves)
(2) Inductive coupling (which you get from the magnetic fields near the transformers in power adaptors)
(3) Capacitive coupling (mains hum buzzing sounds on your music recordings are via capacitive coupling)

An electric fire will not transmit any electromagnetic waves in the form of radio waves (unless there is an electric motor inside it, as sparks from this can create EM waves), it will not have any inductive coupling (unless there is an electric motor inside it, which will cause inductive coupling), and the capacitive coupling it produces will be no greater than any other electric appliance or electrical wiring.

My EHS symptoms are not vague feelings of being unwell around wireless technology. Rather I can have significant to extreme discomfort with clear exposure to certain appliances. For instance I used to get an intense itchy feeling in my eyes within minutes of sitting in front of a computer. Likewise, sitting too close to lights could be just as uncomfortable. And the discomfort would settle down soon after moving away from the source. There’s no doubt I could turn it on and off with exposure. If I forced myself to work at the computer for a few hours when I was especially reactive I’d wake up the next morning with my eyes swollen just about shut.

Unfortunately this problem does not lend itself easily to a blinded test. Similarly the issue I had with heat produced by electricity would be tricky to study.

You point out that these electrical devices do not emit radio waves, which isn’t entirely true, but it’s the case that the radio waves coming off these appliances are a fraction of what you’d get with wireless technology. So the problem many of us are having with these appliances is likely not due to radio waves.

You also point out that there are only three ways EMF can move through the air, but you omitted light and heat. And when I stated in a previous post that EMF was greatest off appliances that use the most electricity, this is pretty much the case when we also include light and heat, naturally in the EMF spectrum. But of course this is not what most think about when they think about EHS. I understand this arouses doubt in someone looking for a plausible scientific explanation of the phenomenon. All I can suggest is that some of our systems can object to infrared and light coming from electrical sources.

So the condition I’m describing is likely not best approached by studying radio waves, heat shock proteins, calcium influx, etc. Rather I think it falls in the same domain as MCS and other intolerances. Indeed most of us with EHS have serious problems with other sensitivities, and I don’t think this is coincidence. Of course sensitivities to chemicals and such don’t involve antibodies either, which is why most allergists scoff at them. I think it’s looking more and more probable that some sort of MCAS is involved in food, chemical, and electrical sensitivities; and that these mast cells can be very fickle and inscrutable.
 

jason30

Senior Member
Messages
516
Location
Europe
But another factor is that even if significant electrosensitivity is real in some sensitive people (such as those with ME/CFS), I suspect in lots of cases, it is more the fear and anxiety that some people have about electromagnetic (EM) radiation that causes symptoms, rather than the EM radiation itself.

This study found precisely that: in individuals with concerns about health risks from cellular base stations that were enrolled in the study to see how EM radiation affected their sleep, when these individuals were told that they were going to be exposed to EM radiation on a particular night, but in fact were not actually exposed to EM radiation (it was a sham exposure, with the base station turned off that night), they slept just as baldy as when they were really exposed to EM radiation (with the base station turned on).

So their anxiety about EM radiation was causing the bad sleep, rather than the EM radiation itself. This shows that people's anxiety about electromagnetic radiation can just on its own cause symptoms.

Hip, in life you see what you want to see.
If you believe that EHS does not exists then you will only find articles and study's about that.

Of course anxiety can make things worse, that's also the case by people with ME/CFS. It's nothing new. But that doesn't mean that EHS does not exists.

Radiation from cell phones and WIFI is bad for us. If you don't want to see that then IMO your blind.:cool:

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...rt-rules-mobile-phone-use-caused-brain-tumour
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,870
Of course anxiety can make things worse, that's also the case by people with ME/CFS. It's nothing new. But that doesn't mean that EHS does not exists.

If you read my post, that's what I said. There may well be people with genuine electromagnetic hypersensitivity, but that study shows that anxieties about these invisible and assumed to be pernicious waves can cause symptoms just on its own. The study I mentioned demonstrated that.



Radiation from cell phones and WIFI is bad for us. If you don't want to see that then IMO your blind.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...rt-rules-mobile-phone-use-caused-brain-tumour

Electromagnetic radiation being bad for you does not equate to it causing electromagnetic hypersensitivity. Cancer and electromagnetic hypersensitivity are completely different things. So it pointless referring to studies which show apparent negative effects from electromagnetic radiation like cancer; that proves nothing about electromagnetic hypersensitivity.
 
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HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
People who work around the equipment are exposed to thousands of times more microwave emf than the public. If Wi-Fi is so bad, why haven’t all cell site and Radar technicians from WWII till now died horrible deaths.

“Oh, but that’s different.”
“It has this amazing property of being stronger the weaker it is.”
.......
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,750
Location
Alberta
People also don't understand the inverse-square decline in EMF power. A cellphone held against your head might cause a problem, but held at arm's length would expose you to less than (quick guess) 1% of the power. I'm not sure how far away a cell tower needs to be to equal the background radiation level humans evolved with, but it's probably a lot closer than most people think.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
@Hip this article might be up your alley. It's a bit of a long read, so I'll post the cheeky conclusion here.


IR Saunas and 5G: Comparing EMF Exposure
Both are forms of radiation and thus sources of EMF exposure. The results of this comparison are counterintuitive and intriguing.

https://medium.com/swlh/ir-saunas-and-5g-comparing-emf-exposure-2451166bf6d8

Takeaways
Though it may not be readily known by the general public, FIR and 5G are located next to each other on the electromagnetic spectrum. Counterintuitively, IR saunas appear to result in more EMF exposure than some 5G hardware (i.e., small cell sites), and when compared to 5G, FIR is a higher EMF energy light wave. Knowing that EMF exposure from IR could be substantially higher than 5G under certain conditions is worth noting and investigating further. More research is needed on FIR and 5G to fully understand the potential health benefits and risks.

Final Thoughts:

What will happen if the next generation of wireless communication technology after 5G (call it 6G or whatever) moves into the FIR portion of the electromagnetic spectrum? Will the new technology have some therapeutic benefits like FIR, or will it be considered potentially hazardous like 5G?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,870
Yes, 5G uses a frequency of 60 GHz, and far infrared frequencies start at around 300 GHz, so 5G and far infrared light are next to each other on the electromagnetic spectrum.

However, if there are any health effects, they may be frequency specific, so just because 5G is right next to the health promoting far infrared, it does not necessarily mean 5G will act in the same way as far infrared.

5G is very unlikely to have adverse effects on health, though, as it is unable to penetrate through the body skin, so it cannot have any effect on the interior of the body. The only ill effects 5G could have would be on the skin itself, or the cornea.

So 5G will probably be better health-wise than 4G, which uses lower frequencies of around 2 GHz, and these do penetrate right through the body.
 

bensmith

Senior Member
Messages
1,547
I cant read all this, but even if you prove there are issues, they would still put them up. Like when they wipe out towns to put up dams.

but best of luck, i hope you get it done.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,750
Location
Alberta
FIR (300 GHz -20 THz) and 60 GHz bands are located next to each other only on graphics that ignore the intervening bands. 240 GHz is a pretty wide band, and can be divided into multiple other bands based on various criteria, such as penetration, possible biological effects, and so forth.
 

Davsey27

Senior Member
Messages
515
@Hip this article might be up your alley. It's a bit of a long read, so I'll post the cheeky conclusion here.


IR Saunas and 5G: Comparing EMF Exposure
Both are forms of radiation and thus sources of EMF exposure. The results of this comparison are counterintuitive and intriguing.

https://medium.com/swlh/ir-saunas-and-5g-comparing-emf-exposure-2451166bf6d8



Anecdotally,

I feel a little better after exposure to infrared sunlight or while in an infrared sauna.

I feel like shit after spending more than a few hours near a wireless modem or an an area that is saturated with wireless radiation
 

Strawberry

Senior Member
Messages
2,109
Location
Seattle, WA USA
My daughter used to work in a tanning salon and thought the red light therapy beds would help me, so I bought a session. I almost couldn’t get out of the bed after the session and half crawled to the chair. It destroyed me somehow. Thankfully I was able to walk out after sitting a few minutes, then sat on the couch in the lobby talking to my daughter until I felt safe to drive.

I have no idea if this is even on topic :lol:.