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Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Wintering, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. Wintering


    Six years ago, I was basically poisoned ... well pickled, (Lumber Liquidators formaldehyde flooring) so my +/+ snps woke up and have been having a field day with me. To make a long story as short as possible, I'm +/+ for all the COMT's, MA0 A, all BHMT's, ACHY's, and GSTP1. From what I understand, this basically means I'm not making any Glutathione, which my Spectracell test confirms. My Homocysteine is very high, but has been reduced (from 23 down to 13) with the help of Seeking Health's HomocysteX Plus, L-5-MTHF, and Hydroxy B12. But, my latest test showed my B12 was excessively high, and my Homocysteine is creeping back up again. And even though I'm supplementing with Glutathione, it's still at the bottom of the barrel.

    My (wonderful) Functional Doctor is stumped, so I've been researching MTHFR "experts" on-line ..... aaaah, if only I could afford to pay them! ;)

    Would any of you wonderful folks have any idea of what I can do to get my methylation unclogged and moving in the right direction? My bod' and brain sure would appreciate any help.

    *fingers crossed*
  2. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

    Western Nebraska

    Which SNPs make you think you're not making glutathione? I am +/+ for GSTP1 I105V rs1695, and from what I've read about GSTP1 snps, they don't impair the ability to make glutathione, but rather they impair the ability of glutathione to conjugate or bind with toxins and then excrete them. So I have glutathione, but I can't use it. This was confirmed by my Spectracell Micronutrition test, which showed that the level of each of the tested oxidants, including glutathione, was adequate, but my Spectrox (Total Antioxidant Function), was deficient.

    Glutathione is dependent on Vitamin C for protection. Make sure your Vitamin C levels are good.

    A serum B12 test measures the total of active and inactive (or spent) B12, so it doesn't tell you how much active B12 you have. A better test of B12 sufficiency is the MMA test (methylmalonic acid), preferably urine rather than plasma. The MMA test actually measures adenosylcobalamin sufficiency, but methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin interconvert, so it's an indirect measure of methylcobalamin levels. You can get a MMA test as a stand-alone test or as part of an Organic Acids Test (OAT).

    You might benefit from adding the adenosylcobalamin form of B12. People with CblA or CblB don't convert from methylcobalamin to adenosylcobalamin well. People with CblC have high homocysteine in addition to cobalamin issues. Freddd and Valentijn have had some recent posts about CblC.
    helen1 likes this.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Hi Lin,

    For starters MeCbl is the BEST form for bringing homocysteine down. Also p5p can help considerably. Have you had methylation startup and needed potassium? If not, you are not taking the "most limiting factor(s)" that stop the reactions before they happen, If you want to work through it based on refeeding syndromes and most needed factors to get your healing going and help work out the logic with your situation come on over to the "refeeding syndrome" post. By the way, a test that show B12 to be excessively high is a bad medical joke and is utterly ridiculous as it is only a statistical abstraction that has no benefit what so ever for you. Many people don't come anywhere near starting to heal until well above the "upper limit". The one use of seeing if you have abnormally high UNSUPPLEMENTED B12 is that it can reveal that the liver cells are breaking down, and releasing B12 into the blood. I try to keep my serum B12 level at 125,000-200,000 pg/ml (calculated) to keep my brain and cord from breaking down further.

    In a UK study in which people were accepted by symp[toms, not tests, 62% of the people who had neuropathic healing would have been rejected by the test results. The AVERAGE of participants before taking b12 was 700pg/ml. The highest participants and responders was over 1500pg/ml, above any "upper limits" that I know of. Good luck
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
    aturtles likes this.
  4. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

    Sth Australia
    Its been said that one doesn't absorb Glutathione well according to Dr Cheney's stuff and its best to get it by undenatured whey. Some brains of denatured whey are apparently being then others. I suggest to a search using "Cheney" "CFS" "whey" for the info.
    South likes this.
  5. Wintering


    Hi Lynn_M, thank you so much for the reply. Well ... please correct me if I'm wrong - sincerely - since I'm really trying to figure this out. It's been my understanding that BHMT and AHCY convert homocysteine to methionine. And the COMT and MAO A break down serotonin and dopamine .... correct?

    I'm just really stumped on what's blocking my pathways to actually use the glutathione (that may be) in my system. With your suggestion, (re: CbIa & b) I dug through my 23&me data, and I am homo and hetero for all 5 of my MMACH snps. So, would you suspect that I have glutathione, but it's not being used / converted properly? What did you do to make those snps happy campers?

    Thank you again, my Vit C is actually at the top of the range. (at least something is working, eh?) :) And, according to Dr. Amy's site, hydroxy was supposed to be my friend, but perhaps I should try adeno, since something isn't working. Also, since I've had almost every test in the books, (doing heavy metal and hair & mineral tests this week) did you find the OAT test to be useful? I'm open to doing anything to feel human again.

    Thank you again for your help,
  6. Wintering


    Hi Freddd, thank you such for the reply. Gosh, I feel like I'm "talking" with a superstar! {{{hugs}}} (When I first joined Phoenix, everyone would always reference your posts)

    Yes, I am taking MeClb and p5p (along with TMG) in the Homoscystex Plus, along with supplementing with 'essential minerals' including potassium. But please forgive my ignorance .... I'm not sure what "methylation startup" and "most limiting factors" are? Plus, I've been trying to get my (long lost pickled) brain to start working again to understand the "refeeding syndrome". I've read your posts, but it really isn't sinking in. (thank you formaldehyde)

    And since you are SO respected, may I please ask if you see anything else in my +/+ snps that would prevent my glutathione from working properly? I was a happy, healthy, intelligent person before the formaldehyde took over my world. I just assumed that glutathione was the master fix to get everything flowing in the right direction again. Yes/No?

    Thank you, and {{{healthy hugs}}}
    aturtles likes this.
  7. Wintering


    Hi taniaaust1,
    Thank you so much for the reply. Believe it or not, my functional doc actually recommended Whey Protein to increase my glutathione levels, but sadly, it did not agree with me. And thank you for the info on Dr. Cheney ... but apparently he's changed his mind and going in a different direction. I sure wish Dr. Cheney would recommend something new that actually works!

    With healing hugs,
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Hi Lin,

    Glutathione can completely wipe out all effective B12 in circulation and cause methyltrap. Having methyltrap means no effective MeCbl and then the l-methylfolate gets kicked out of the cells and causes "fails" at folate symptoms rather than b12 deficiency. However, it can't be corrected while taking glutathione. I go by symptoms. I haven't found snps to be predictive of what works and nobody I've seen or hear from has figured it out either, or you would see a whole lot of people recovering better. I got nailed by copper deficiency. Copper was the "most limiting factor" because nothing else could stop the increasing damage, for perhaps 5 years as the damage built up and getting enough copper back into my system allowed the methylation functions blocked by copper deficiency started up again, slightly noticeable in 4 hours and definite in 24 hours.
  9. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

    Western Nebraska

    I think your understanding of the mentioned genes is mostly correct. COMT metabolizes catecholamines, which includes epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine. I've not ever seen serotonin mentioned as being a catecholamine.

    You say you're homo or hetero for all 5 of your MMAHC snps. When you say homo, do you mean homo for the wild version or for the polymorphism? And for the hetero snps, have you looked at the population frequency for those? Many times the frequency of the hetero snp in the population is close to or even higher than it is for either of the homo alleles. In those instances, it seems to me that the hetero condition can't be very deleterious.

    I suggest looking up the OMIM entries for CblA, CblB, and CblC. CblA and CblB are different genes than the MMAHC, which is for CblC. Very often, in looking up various conditions on OMIM, I find that the most determinative snp or snps are not the ones that 23andMe has tested for. So you can't always conclude anything by what your 23andMe snps show.

    The only advice I've found for anyone with poor glutathione conjugation is to take N-acetyl cysteine (NAC). This was suggested by biochemist Dr. Andrew Cutler of Amalgam Illness fame, and he also recommended NAC for low glutathione levels. I gave the quotes from his book in another post I wrote about 10 minutes ago. If your Spectracell test said you were deficient in glutathione, that probably means that you're not making sufficient glutathione, in addition to probably having problems using what you do have. Maybe your toxic exposure wiped out what you were able to put to use.

    Other people besides Dr. Cheney are still recommending undenatured whey to build up glutathione levels. There is a big difference in quality among the various brands of undenatured wheys on the market, which is actually a fairly delicate product which gets ruined if the milk has been pasteurized to start with. I like One World Whey, which is made from unpasteurized milk from pasture-raised cows. They sell a small 3-sample pack, if you want to try their product at a low cost.

    AdenosylB12 is found in the mitochondria and gets turned over about once a week, whereas methylB12 and hydroxyB12 are in the cytosol of the cell and get turned over daily. So they are metabolized differently, and I rather doubt if Yasko's rationale for recommending hydroxyB12 for COMT snps would apply to adenosylB12. You would take adenosylB12 in addition to methyl or hydroxyB12.

    The body uses a number of different pathways for getting rid of toxins - it's not all glutathione, although that is one of the most important ones. I suggest researching to see if you can find the specific detoxification pathway for formaldehyde, and then trying to boost that specific pathway.

    I think the OAT is a useful test. Richvank recommended them. Even though my usual lab tests - complete metabolic profiles, CBCs, lipid panels - would show all normal, the OAT would show that I had issues. When you're not feeling normal, it's nice to have a test that reflects that. Have you researched on formaldehyde poisoning to see if any specific test is recommended to show that?

    I suggest looking at the Wikipedia site on refeeding syndrome. It applies not just to people who haven't been fed, but also to people who are experiencing a turnaround in their health and a consequent upsurge in cell metabolism.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  10. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

    Western Nebraska
    I hope you aren't eating or drinking anything with aspartame, which produces formaldehyde in the body after it's consumed.

    The major conjugation reactions are glucuronidation, glutathione conjugation, amino acid conjugation, sulfation, acetylation, and methylation.

    Near-infrared saunas are supposed to be good for detoxing.

    This article gives more detox information targeted for aspartame/formaldehyde.

    I hope your sensitivity isn't as bad as this story describes:

    Since in that story they mention formaldehyde being an aldehyde, you might be interested in this article: They show COMT and MAO and aldehyde dehydrogenase being involved in the degradation of norepinephrine. One of the end metabolites is vanillamandelic (VMA), which is measured on the Great Plains OAT.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2015
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Hi Lynn,

    That link you posted reminded me of a really close call. Many years ago my wife and I were house shopping. We were looking in a specific area because our daughter was accepted for a special program in one school in a huge valley wide district, if we could get her there. We were house hunting anyway so we checked out lots of houses, by doing them separately I needed a room for a darkroom and other things. So we each checked out a bunch of houses. I was checking out a new subdivision with perhaps 4 or 5 floor-plans and the one I liked was the last one available in that floor-plan until the next batch got built way too late for the school. I really liked it. I called my wife on the spot (yes they had phones in the model home in days before cell phones). She had to pick up the kids from activities and would head over. I sat there doing paper work for about 90 minutes before she got there. About 5 minutes later, about 2 hours in all and suddenly I couldn't breath and had to get outside. I had lived all my life in houses built long before particle board.

    Suddenly we had a new requirement for housing. We finally found one built by a sufferer of chemical sensitivities. He had used all exterior ply. The glue had far less formaldehyde, and he had found a bunch that was well aged and aired out. I arranged to spend half a day there. It was good, no problem, but it was nowhere near the "right" school.

    I found out as soon as it was on the market that I could not tolerate aspartame. It gave me terrible headches in minutes.
  12. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

    Western Nebraska

    I'm glad you were able to get out of that model home before you got committed to buying one.

    Your house-hunting story reminds me of when I lived in Mesa, Az. in the 1970's and my husband and I were shopping around for a new mobile home. I would walk into some of the model units and within minutes my eyes would start burning and watering, I would find the acrid odor to be overwhelming, and I could feel a headache try to start. We gave up on mobile homes pretty quickly. I couldn't imagine how people could live in that toxicity.

    Given the way homes are built and furnished these days, the formaldehyde in them is yet another unheralded toxin assaulting the health of the people of this country. Most people apparently aren't sensitive enough to know it's an issue for them, but there must be considerable subclinical effects that go unrecognized. In addition to the additional exposure from aspartame.
  13. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    The BHMT and AHCY SNPs tested by Yasko and reported by Genetic Genie don't actually do much of anything at all.
  14. Lynn_M

    Lynn_M Senior Member

    Western Nebraska

    If you're looking for a test to indicate what is wrong with you, you should consider the Methylation Pathways test from Health Diagnostics Lab. It's a functional test, not a genetic test. Richvank was a big proponent of this test. See his 9/21/12 post about it here.

    Since you are +/+ for GSTP1, which controls glutathione transferase, his remarks under the Glutathione (reduced) heading would pertain to you:
    "Anecdotal evidence suggests that PWCs who do not have glutathione depletion do have abnormalities in the function of one or more of the enzymes that make use of glutathione, i.e. the glutathione peroxidases and/or glutathione transferases. This may be due to genetic polymorphisms or DNA adducts on the genes that code for these enzymes, or in the case of some of the glutathione peroxidases, to a low selenium status."
  15. Wintering


    Hi Freddd,

    Thank you again .... and YIKES! Are you suggesting that since I started supplementing with Glutathione, that's what escalated (pooling?) my serum B12? (and not doing any ... expensive .... good?)

    When you say you go by symptoms .... do you mean actual physical symptoms? Ha, ya got a month or two? ;) Since the formaldehyde exposure, my thyroid, lungs, gut, and brain have taken a hiatus. (I miss them!)

    I'm so glad you figured out it was the copper deficiency that was causing your health problems. Thankfully, my copper/zinc serum levels are balanced. But, apparently I need to stop the Glutathione supplementing until my MeCbl levels are doing their job.

    Hoping your next 24 hours are healthy and happy,

  16. Wintering


    Hi Lynn_M,

    Thank you again for all your help. {{{ hugs }}} As we speak/write, 23&me is down, so I can't access my raw data. From my limited memory, I did have a TT, AA, and AG allele. (don't ask me where!) And once it's back up, I'll definitely check into OMIM.

    And yes, I have been taking NAC along with Nrf2 to help with the glutathione production. (apparently, it's not helping!) And wouldn't 'cha know ... the detox pathway for formaldehyde is with glutathione's help: I actually found a doctor that specialized in formaldehyde exposure, but he's involved in the Lumber Liquidators lawsuit (I'm one of the plaintiffs) so he hasn't returned my multiple calls.

    With your suggestion, I will look into "One World Whey" (the Standard Process whey didn't agree with me) AdenosylB12, and the OAT test.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for all your help,

  17. Wintering


    Hi Lynn_M,

    Wow ... thank you again for all your help. {{{ big hugs }}} Those links are amazing ..... if only I could fully wrap my pickled brain around the Wikipedia entry! Yep, this little ... er, um .... journey has not been a trip to Disneyland. (more like a visit HellTown!) But, on the positive side, at least I got my will prepared.

    Nope, no aspartame for me. Anything that ends in 'ame is poison for me. My functional doc recommended near-infrared saunas, but from my research, it's not that effective for detoxing gasses. (formaldehyde) What has helped are Epsom Salt baths and Coffee Enemas. (don't cringe!) ;)

    From the Wikipedia link, would you suggest I do something to support my COMT and MAO snps - perhaps something like L-tyrosine?

    Thankfully, I'm seeing my Functional Doc again next month, so I'll ask him about the OAT test. I've done everything else, what's one more test, eh? :)

    With thankful healing hugs,

  18. Wintering


    Hi Valentijn,
    It's nice to hear from you again. Yes, I've heard that the BHMT and AHCY snps are questionable ... but I'm grasping at any straw to find my way back to health. (whatever that was!)
  19. Old Bones

    Old Bones Senior Member

    Formaldehyde "poisoning" also played a role in my developing ME, or at least in its severity. We were renovating our home at the same time as the upper-respiratory infection that I believe initiated my sudden onset -- new Stainmaster carpet, new furniture, and woodwork finished by myself in an unventilated basement, with a product containing tung oil (which I later learned has been implicated in some cases of ME and MCS). Years after the fact, I'm shocked at how uninformed I was back then.

    For the next year, I struggled to maintain my demanding lifestyle. Then, the office building I worked in was extensively renovated during the winter season when fresh air intake was reduced to control heating costs. Several times, my floor was renovated right up to my private office, at which time I'd be moved to another floor, and the process, and hence the chemical exposure, would start again. During this seven-month time period, I became progressively worse -- both physically and cognitively. My position involved recommending multi-million dollar expenditures, yet I couldn't add three 3-digit numbers together with a calculator and get the same answer twice by the time I went on disability.

    A few years later, we became acquainted with a PhD chemist who worked at DuPont when the anti-stain carpet treatments were being developed. On principle, he had quit this well-paid position because he couldn't ethically justify being involved with products he knew would harm so many people. Of course, carpets weren't the only problem. Others have mentioned wood products containing urea formaldehyde resins (interior-grade plywood and particle board). My chemical sensitivities became so acute, I could tell if I walked into a home with a new article containing formaldehyde, even if it involved only a few square feet of material, and was located in a far corner of the basement.

    We eventually bought an older home that had completely "out gassed", and had it renovated with safe products. Over the years, my sensitivities have gradually reduced by living in a clean environment, allowing me to spend short periods of time in buildings constructed with typical building materials. This is a good thing, since previously even a few minutes of chemical exposure could put me in a trance.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Hi Lin,

    Yes, actual symptoms. Now the list has redundancies for various reasons, some are symptoms, some are signs, some sound like a person is repeating word for word something they read or their doctor said and instead of saying "peripheral neuropathy" there might be 10 or 20 individual symptoms of peripheral neuropathy which allow progressions to be seen. There are about 10 different descriptions of neuromuscular pains which shows different kinds of pain responding to different combinations of nutrients. I had all of them. The purpose of this list is to see how precisely and specifically each persons symptoms can be described and to get those responses. The AMA by POLICY didn't want people treated with B12 just because it affects symptoms, that wasn't new modern scientific and included too many people for very expensive B12 in 1955. Besides everybody knows pernicious anemia is almost the whole story of B12 deficiency so how do you exclude all these complainers who merely say "it makes me feel better". The AMA said that would make them like drug dealers selling heroin. They completely ignored that it affects a lot more symptoms beyond pernicious anemia. They did everything possible including threatening doctors to eliminate as many people as possible from getting b12. This of course affected research. Then there is the usually ignored factor that Cyanocobalamin is a lab mistake that is a waste form of B12.

    When your methylation is working well the body should be making all the glutathione it needs. It can cause return of deficiency symptoms in the range of 2 hours to several weeks after starting and keeps a person in methyltrap indefinitely. One researcher I spoke with by phone outright said "Glutathione is far too dangerous to use as a supplement".

    Here is a compact version of the list.

    In this post this is a list of symptoms from experience of symptoms relieved, many were/are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients. This includes the symptoms from international lists of B12 and folate deficiencies in greater detail than generally stated. And this ignores that the UK, India, USA, Australia and others all have different definitions of B12 deficiency, as if the symptoms care which side of a line on a map for manifesting. "Responsive" can mean anything from slight changes to complete gone symptoms. It also depends upon the cause. My damage from the car wreck is still there and still causes symptoms and likely will the rest of my life. Some thingh change very quickly and some things very slowly and some not at all for any given person

    These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

    morning joint stiffness and pain
    acid reflux
    daily vomiting
    standing with eyes closed, lose balance
    hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
    feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
    glove and stocking anesthesia
    neuropathic bladder
    unable to release bladder, mild to severe
    unable to fully empty the bladder
    fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    always feeling cold
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    sleep disorders
    non restorative sleep
    Night terrors
    Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
    Sleep paralysis
    alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
    alterations and loss of taste
    taste hallucinations
    smell hallucinations
    sound hallucinations
    visual hallucinations
    alterations and loss of smell
    loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
    loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
    roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it in mid word
    blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
    Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
    optic atrophy
    centrocecal scotomata
    hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
    intolerance to loud sounds
    intolerance to multiple sounds
    burning muscle pain
    diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
    tinnitus - ringing in ears
    sore burning tongue

    These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    stomach not emptying
    frequent vomiting
    acid regurgitation
    altered bowel habits
    abdominal pain
    loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
    nutrient specific anorexia
    intermittent constipation
    intermittent diarrhea
    irritable bowel syndrome
    sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
    Hypersensitivity to touch
    Hypersensitivity to odors
    Hypersensitivity to tastes
    Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
    Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
    Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
    Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
    Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
    Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
    Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
    burning bladder (no UTI)
    painful urgency (no UTI)
    burning urethra (no UTI)
    Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
    elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
    elevated LDH
    big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
    platelet dysfunction, low count
    white cell changes, low count
    hyper segmented neutrophils
    inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
    inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
    mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
    chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
    chronic sinus congestion
    dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
    frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
    chronic infections, many varieties possible
    Seborrhic dermatitis
    skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
    poor hair condition
    thin nails
    transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
    mouth sensitive to hot and cold
    sore burning tongue
    beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
    sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
    teeth sensitive to hot and cold
    canker sores

    with p5p added

    Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher

    These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
    impaired white blood cell response
    poor resistance to infections
    easy bruising
    pronounced anemia
    macrocytic anemia
    megablastic anemia
    pernicious anemia
    decreased blood clotting
    MCV > 93 first warning,
    MCV > 97 alert
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

    Plus Vitamin E
    Child with neural tube defects

    mother of child with neural tube defect

    These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

    lack of dreaming
    MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
    macrocytic anemia
    metallic taste in mouth
    Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
    Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
    splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis

    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones


    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile dysfunction men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone
    low estrogen

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms

    These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils

    Elevated CSF Hcy
    Low CSF cobalamin
    limbs feel stiff

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
    dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin

    Slow to adapt to night vision

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF

    Difficulty in word finding

    CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils

    Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
    demyelinated areas on nerves
    subacute combined degeneration
    axonal degeneration of spinal cord
    unsteadiness of gait
    ataxic gait, particularly in dark
    positive Romberg
    positive Lhermittes
    Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
    Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
    Loss of sense of joint position
    sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
    sudden "ice pick" pain
    decreased reflexes
    brisk reflexes
    Foot Drop
    tripping over toes
    injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
    general feeling of weakness

    12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.

    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl

    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle

    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat

    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin

    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS

    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA

    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    congestive heart failure
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA

    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
    heart palpitations

    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse

    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Difficulty in word finding

    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    mood swings
    memory loss
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk

    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    Widespread pain throughout body

    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
    prekdw and aturtles like this.

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