THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

[howirecovered]

@howirecovered,

Take a hard look at copper and at your liver. Iodine is also a trace mineral. Connective Tissue problems happen with copper deficiency,varicosities, dark gums falling apart and soon. Goodluck.

You guessed it - I've been copper toxic and working to bring it down for five years. Almost down to normal now. Toxicity impairs the liver where copper transport is handled so we end up toxic and deficient at the same time. When I take the Mitosynergy copper supplement it ramps up my methylation and detox (uncomfortably!).

By the way, candida is know to cause gum disease.

 

[Freddd]

You guessed it - I've been copper toxic and working to bring it down for five years. Almost down to normal now. Toxicity impairs the liver where copper transport is handled so we end up toxic and deficient at the same time. When I take the Mitosynergy copper supplement it ramps up my methylation and detox (uncomfortably!).

By the way, candida is know to cause gum disease.

I didn't have a gum infection of candida or anything., I had a copper deficiency causing connective tissue disease, liver problems and immunity problems. It has taken 3 difficult years to barely get it into low range and get rid of many of the symptoms.. How do you end up" toxic"and "deficient" at the same time? Copper,as it got up just above bottom of range caused my MCV to drop MCV=102 to MCV=92.My testosterone increased by 300,my hematocrit went past 5.I That caused considerable refeeding syndrome and hypokalemia symptoms (often called "detox").I decreased P-5-P and hematocrit came down. I have to adjust the testosterone each 3 months as it interacts with all sorts of other things that causes tissue growth and healing.

Refeeding syndrome is manageable if understood. When the liver is not putting out the ceruloplasmin becasue of deficiency, candida blossoms. There may be other reasons and appear to be becasue of out of balance of some kinds. Candida infection is a symptom. Also Boron deficiency can cause out of control infections in the oral and vaginal mucosa. Boron and copper deficiency together are brutal-. I also found that I was deficient in all the trace minerals after 6 years of healing (retrospectively) and it took 9 years to get that untangled. Each of the trace minerals enables a small group of cells to be made that is enough to cause low methylation symptoms in other tissues than those growing.

I have not had the many things that added up to FMS and CFS. since 2008 or so. I have outright blatant refeeding syndrome. which everybody who starts cell production with turning on methylation and ATP appear to manifest. Understanding it that way can lead to dealing with it rapidly, other conceptual hypothetical descriptions of symptoms iis something people can struggle with for years otherwise.It took me 7 years to figure out the methylfolate, and suddenly it is gone at 45mg of methylfolate daily, tells me the next induced deficiency which was copper. As soon as the methylfolate deficiency symptoms disappeared different group of symptoms similar to methylation popped up from copper deficiency and Boron deficiency, 2 different overlapping sets of symptoms... My main problem now are things of age, ;like scoliosis possibly affected by the connective tissue disease of copper deficiency, prostate, I find 90% of the induced deficiency symptoms can be corrected in days, some things are permanent damage and then there are the multi-month to a year to heal. Good luck.

 

[splusholia]

I didn't have a gum infection of candida or anything., I had a copper deficiency causing connective tissue disease, liver problems and immunity problems. It has taken 3 difficult years to barely get it into low range and get rid of many of the symptoms.. How do you end up" toxic"and "deficient" at the same time? Copper,as it got up just above bottom of range caused my MCV to drop MCV=102 to MCV=92.My testosterone increased by 300,my hematocrit went past 5.I That caused considerable refeeding syndrome and hypokalemia symptoms (often called "detox").I decreased P-5-P and hematocrit came down. I have to adjust the testosterone each 3 months as it interacts with all sorts of other things that causes tissue growth and healing.

Refeeding syndrome is manageable if understood. When the liver is not putting out the ceruloplasmin becasue of deficiency, candida blossoms. There may be other reasons and appear to be becasue of out of balance of some kinds. Candida infection is a symptom. Also Boron deficiency can cause out of control infections in the oral and vaginal mucosa. Boron and copper deficiency together are brutal-. I also found that I was deficient in all the trace minerals after 6 years of healing (retrospectively) and it took 9 years to get that untangled. Each of the trace minerals enables a small group of cells to be made that is enough to cause low methylation symptoms in other tissues than those growing.

I have not had the many things that added up to FMS and CFS. since 2008 or so. I have outright blatant refeeding syndrome. which everybody who starts cell production with turning on methylation and ATP appear to manifest. Understanding it that way can lead to dealing with it rapidly, other conceptual hypothetical descriptions of symptoms iis something people can struggle with for years otherwise.It took me 7 years to figure out the methylfolate, and suddenly it is gone at 45mg of methylfolate daily, tells me the next induced deficiency which was copper. As soon as the methylfolate deficiency symptoms disappeared different group of symptoms similar to methylation popped up from copper deficiency and Boron deficiency, 2 different overlapping sets of symptoms... My main problem now are things of age, ;like scoliosis possibly affected by the connective tissue disease of copper deficiency, prostate, I find 90% of the induced deficiency symptoms can be corrected in days, some things are permanent damage and then there are the multi-month to a year to heal. Good luck.

How did you safely increase your copper?

 

[Hoosierfans]

How did you safely increase your copper?

I’m interesting in knowing this as well @Freddd if you are around. 🤩.

 

[Methyl90]

Up @Freddd

 

[Freddd]

How did you safely increase your copper?

I had 1 mg of copper in a multi- mineral. As the copper deficiency symptoms are very similar to lack of methylation except it is farther along the cell making. I started with the Solgar from a UK study as the closest they could get to a "medical form" in the UK. I found that one very irritating to my stomach. I tried various quantities, didn't help, made irritation worse. I tried basically most of the forms sold as supplement. I found the Source Natural Copper Sebacate to be most effective so far.

I didn't start getting copper balanced until 4+ years into titrating lithium orostate, 5 - 20 mg/daily. Halflife from injection has gone from about 2 half life in an hour to no b12 in urine at all for 24+ hours after waiting a week for injection and tried compared to sublingual. Same results with sublingual tablets for an hour.

Copper went up a bit, what I can watch for as first for sure symptom of low copper.is rising red cells MCV.
Another symptoms of low copper is weakness and tiredness in the legs caused by sub acute combined degeneration type lesions in the upper motor neurons

Copper going up enough to bring MCV down to <=93 also raises testosterone by about 300 ng/ml (men).

The copper serum level has been very unstable developing prostate cancer currently. It kills mouse prostate cancer cells.

This has been the toughest (most subtle?) micromineral so far.. Molybdenum is often short when copper is;. And I can't identify molybdenum deficiency symptoms yet nor manganese and these both appear to come after copper it would appear in sequence. Be well.

 

[motorhead]

Hi @Freddd, I'm reading through this and other threads of yours, thanks a lot for all this work. While it's going to take me a while to read everything I'm also ordering supplements on the fly.
Given the emphasis you've put on it I'm assuming l-carnitine tartrate and Acety-l-carnitine are not forms suggested and it has to be LCF? Seems most supplements are in the former forms and LCF is more expensive.

Also, are the A, D3 and E in this one enough in your opinion? (it would be handy not having to order them one by one)

 

[Methyl90]

Retinol is similar to Etomoxir in inhibiting PPAR and the carnitine transporter and equates to less ALCAR formation.

 

[motorhead]

Retinol is similar to Etomoxir in inhibiting PPAR and the carnitine transporter and equates to less ALCAR formation.

So taking Retinol in place of LCF?

 

[reallyconfused]

Can anyone explain? What is freddd telling about prostate cancer, copper instability? He is talking about some mouse model? Or is he himself diagnosed with it?(hopefully not).

 

[Methyl90]

So taking Retinol in place of LCF?

I answer you based both on direct experience (I started to feel bad at 5 years) and from what I read in my studies. I meant that if you take retinol in high doses you could produce LESS Alcar. It is definitely dose dependent and on your bioavailability at that particular time. Furthermore, lack of critical cofactors can delay the flow of vitamin A and thus you would go into storage. zinc is essential for vitamin A also increases ceruloplasmin and the consequent transport of copper (positive because it is not deposited).

 

[Methyl90]

My question is the following:

Could the headache be due to a lack of B12, methylfolate, potassium after starting MB12?

 

[Freddd]

Hi @Freddd, I'm reading through this and other threads of yours, thanks a lot for all this work. While it's going to take me a while to read everything I'm also ordering supplements on the fly.
Given the emphasis you've put on it I'm assuming l-carnitine tartrate and Acety-l-carnitine are not forms suggested and it has to be LCF? Seems most supplements are in the former forms and LCF is more expensive.

Also, are the A, D3 and E in this one enough in your opinion? (it would be handy not having to order them one by one)
View attachment 43741

@motorhead - L-carnitine fumarate seems to be the one that works best for about 90% of the people doing this. However, my experience is that from time to time, the carnitine I need changes. Only one works well at a time but it can stop working suddenly and then you need a different one. I generally have kept 4 or so varieties oin small bottles and the one big bottle i s the current which might last a year or 5 or a month or 2 until having to try each one, one kind a day until finding the one that works. Also methylfolate can work great as Metafolin for a month or 5 years and sudden;y have to switch to Quatrefolic . I keep both on hand, These happen quickly.

Can anyone explain? What is freddd telling about prostate cancer, copper instability? He is talking about some mouse model? Or is he himself diagnosed with it?(hopefully not).

It's me, not a mouse model that is diagnosed. I have had copper deficiency for 10 years, very difficult to get balanced out with zinc and iron and so on.L appears to restore some degree of homeostasis. Also during the worst deficiency I had liver damage, antibiotics causing more damage to liver while low on copper, nerve SACD "like" lesions and neurology damage and so on. Copper is involved in all sorts of ways. As the lithium TCR-Li built up over 5 years, the copper got more stable , my kidneys eGFR went from 59% to 86% as it grew more TCR-Li and the B12 serum half life went from 20 - 50 minutes to 24 hour pause then with maybe 12 hours serum halflife when 1 week went between MeCbl sublingual doses or injections.

So 13 months ago I had the most normal set of CBC tests I've ever had. Both me and my internist said how normal they look. 10 months ago my copper plunged from high end to low end of range, my testosterone went from low because of a prescription mess up to 4x what it should have been for the tapering testosterone. My hypokalemia required 50% increase in potassium to not have frequent gut paralysis. I had skin lesions indicating cell failure from lack of methylfolate or copper or ? The past ten months something has been growing hard and hot and it turned out to be prostate cancer with large jumps in PSA at 10 months, 7 months, 4 months and smaller increase 1 month ago. This is a;ll quite new to me and I'm sharing the information I have and hope somebody recognizes it and recognizes. The doctors all say must get it out quickly before metastasize occurs..

 

[motorhead]

Thanks Freddd, sorry about the diagnosis. I too misread and thought you were mentioning mice studies.
Hope it can get solved quickly.

I answer you based both on direct experience (I started to feel bad at 5 years) and from what I read in my studies. I meant that if you take retinol in high doses you could produce LESS Alcar. It is definitely dose dependent and on your bioavailability at that particular time. Furthermore, lack of critical cofactors can delay the flow of vitamin A and thus you would go into storage. zinc is essential for vitamin A also increases ceruloplasmin and the consequent transport of copper (positive because it is not deposited).

I'll have to look into cause I don't know how and to what producing less ALCAR is beneficial.

 

[reallyconfused]

@motorhead - L-carnitine fumarate seems to be the one that works best for about 90% of the people doing this. However, my experience is that from time to time, the carnitine I need changes. Only one works well at a time but it can stop working suddenly and then you need a different one. I generally have kept 4 or so varieties oin small bottles and the one big bottle i s the current which might last a year or 5 or a month or 2 until having to try each one, one kind a day until finding the one that works. Also methylfolate can work great as Metafolin for a month or 5 years and sudden;y have to switch to Quatrefolic . I keep both on hand, These happen quickly.



It's me, not a mouse model that is diagnosed. I have had copper deficiency for 10 years, very difficult to get balanced out with zinc and iron and so on.L appears to restore some degree of homeostasis. Also during the worst deficiency I had liver damage, antibiotics causing more damage to liver while low on copper, nerve SACD "like" lesions and neurology damage and so on. Copper is involved in all sorts of ways. As the lithium TCR-Li built up over 5 years, the copper got more stable , my kidneys eGFR went from 59% to 86% as it grew more TCR-Li and the B12 serum half life went from 20 - 50 minutes to 24 hour pause then with maybe 12 hours serum halflife when 1 week went between MeCbl sublingual doses or injections.

So 13 months ago I had the most normal set of CBC tests I've ever had. Both me and my internist said how normal they look. 10 months ago my copper plunged from high end to low end of range, my testosterone went from low because of a prescription mess up to 4x what it should have been for the tapering testosterone. My hypokalemia required 50% increase in potassium to not have frequent gut paralysis. I had skin lesions indicating cell failure from lack of methylfolate or copper or ? The past ten months something has been growing hard and hot and it turned out to be prostate cancer with large jumps in PSA at 10 months, 7 months, 4 months and smaller increase 1 month ago. This is a;ll quite new to me and I'm sharing the information I have and hope somebody recognizes it and recognizes. The doctors all say must get it out quickly before metastasize occurs..

I feel sad to know that, Fred.. But I am very sure, you will be cured very soon as you have cured yourself of many so called "incurable" illnesses. Get well soon, Fred. Our prayers with you.

 

[Athene*]

Best of luck, Fred.

 

[wookielove]

@motorhead - L-carnitine fumarate seems to be the one that works best for about 90% of the people doing this. However, my experience is that from time to time, the carnitine I need changes. Only one works well at a time but it can stop working suddenly and then you need a different one. I generally have kept 4 or so varieties oin small bottles and the one big bottle i s the current which might last a year or 5 or a month or 2 until having to try each one, one kind a day until finding the one that works. Also methylfolate can work great as Metafolin for a month or 5 years and sudden;y have to switch to Quatrefolic . I keep both on hand, These happen quickly.

It's me, not a mouse model that is diagnosed. I have had copper deficiency for 10 years, very difficult to get balanced out with zinc and iron and so on.L appears to restore some degree of homeostasis. Also during the worst deficiency I had liver damage, antibiotics causing more damage to liver while low on copper, nerve SACD "like" lesions and neurology damage and so on. Copper is involved in all sorts of ways. As the lithium TCR-Li built up over 5 years, the copper got more stable , my kidneys eGFR went from 59% to 86% as it grew more TCR-Li and the B12 serum half life went from 20 - 50 minutes to 24 hour pause then with maybe 12 hours serum halflife when 1 week went between MeCbl sublingual doses or injections.

So 13 months ago I had the most normal set of CBC tests I've ever had. Both me and my internist said how normal they look. 10 months ago my copper plunged from high end to low end of range, my testosterone went from low because of a prescription mess up to 4x what it should have been for the tapering testosterone. My hypokalemia required 50% increase in potassium to not have frequent gut paralysis. I had skin lesions indicating cell failure from lack of methylfolate or copper or ? The past ten months something has been growing hard and hot and it turned out to be prostate cancer with large jumps in PSA at 10 months, 7 months, 4 months and smaller increase 1 month ago. This is a;ll quite new to me and I'm sharing the information I have and hope somebody recognizes it and recognizes. The doctors all say must get it out quickly before metastasize occurs..

Freddd, I have a close friendship with someone who developed severe, permanent side effects from Finasteride, which is a treatment for enlarged prostates and prostate cancer, including permanently suppressed testosterone and elevated E2 levels, CFS, and severe depression. I can't provide advice on treatments, but wanted to make you aware that this drug can have severe effects beyond the label.

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, I have a close friendship with someone who developed severe, permanent side effects from Finasteride, which is a treatment for enlarged prostates and prostate cancer, including permanently suppressed testosterone and elevated E2 levels, CFS, and severe depression. I can't provide advice on treatments, but wanted to make you aware that this drug can have severe effects beyond the label.

Thank you for the heads up.

For your friend some of symptoms are likely secondary symptoms from bottlenecks on some cell making. https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186

The nutrients and symptoms lists in the post helped me tremendously get rid of secondary symptoms. I have been off testosterone for 5 months now after 21 years of TRT and 13 years of very low testosterone before that and nobody tested until 2000.

Secondary symptoms are rarely marked as "side effects". I had permanently suppressed testosterone since age 39. For 21 years I had TRT until diagnosed with prostate cancer. Now I am back to low testosterone. I have done a lot of nutritional work and gotten rid of 200 secondary symptoms becasue of a genetic situation I have. I had a lot of help with MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine (fumarate currently). Those symptoms were permanent and worsening with time until I started the vitamins. Then the last of 6 years I have been taking lithium orotate as a micronutrient and it has helped my body achieve balance with copper and electrolytes, hematocrit, mood, energy, muscle pain and all matter of things.

With prostate cancer they will like to want to use Lupron to zero hormones and it is totally BRUTAL accorning to many who have had it.. There are other choices. Good luck at helping your friend and hope you never are in this place.

 

[wookielove]

Cancer is a crappy battle. One thing I can recommend is Wim Hoff breathing Method and cold therapy. It cannot hurt. I get annoyed, but it does change blood chemistry against cancer.

For your friend some of symptoms are likely secondary symptoms from bottlenecks on some cell making. https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186

Looks like you may have refined your protocol again since the last time I reviewed it. Will give it some reading this weekend. Thank you. I've been on various forms of your protocol for years and have also had a lot of help with MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, and L-Carnitine Fumerate, in combination with the carnivore diet to quell inflammation. Will dip into the lithium orotate and see if it helps me.

One quick question, I don't seem to be able to tolerate methylfolate anymore, and I've had to go off AdoCbl and L-Carnatine years ago. I took Metafolin on and off for extended periods, and my brain/energy would pick up. I would hit a wall, then go off. I have been off for about 6 months, before I tried the last couple of times. At this point in my journey, MTHFL speeds up my brain, but all outer layers of my skin deteriorate. I form cracks in my feet that bleed, my hair gets dry and pokey, my gums recede, my eyes dry up, and it feels like my intenstines and gut are doing the same. Basically my skin and perhaps surface of my internal digestive organs start to dry out and break down. My dose is very small, basically a crumb of a Metafolin tablet. This happens quickly after taking it, within a day or two.

I'm taking supporting B vitamins that I compound (mostly based on your protocol), DHEA, and omega 3s, trace complex minerals. I have a hard time with my gut in absorbing potassium/magnesium/calcium, so I do what I can but I'm sure it's not enough.

I had a similar experience to adenoB12, where I get revved up and crash and get gum recession and dry skin, and cannot tolerate it anymore.

I would appreciate any insight. I'm guessing potassium, but I have a hard time absorbing it in my gut.

 

[Eastman]

... At this point in my journey, MTHFL speeds up my brain, but all outer layers of my skin deteriorate. I form cracks in my feet that bleed, my hair gets dry and pokey, my gums recede, my eyes dry up, and it feels like my intenstines and gut are doing the same. Basically my skin and perhaps surface of my internal digestive organs start to dry out and break down...

I had a similar experience to adenoB12, where I get revved up and crash and get gum recession and dry skin, and cannot tolerate it anymore.

Methyl groups combine with nicotinamide/niacinamide/vit B3 to form methylnicotinamide and could thus conceivably deplete vit B3.

Vit B3 deficiency leads to pellagra. Pellagra is marked by the three Ds: diarrhea, dermatitis, dementia.