trishrhymes
Senior Member
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Patriarchy is quite insidious in that it recruits women to reproduce their own oppression.
Very well put, @Cheesus
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Patriarchy is quite insidious in that it recruits women to reproduce their own oppression.
I'm not sure what you mean by "modern" feminism. There's ultimately one sort of feminism, and that's the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. And I don't see the under 20's rejecting any sort of feminism - rather it is so integrated into their culture that they take it for granted. The only modern twist is that feminism now often also means there shouldn't be the expectation to conform to the ideal of the stereotypical feminist.It might not be wise to tie your cause onto modern feminism as it is fast losing favor especially with the under 20s demographic, and Trumps presidency looks like it might accelerate that process.
Yes, and they are just as happy to debase their own gender. In the process, they carefully position themselves above the rabble, as the supposed exceptional few who don't succumb to their weaker natureAnd there are lots of female psychologists like Trudie Chalder who are also doing a lot of harm promoting the BPS crap. Sadly, we are victims of women as well as men.
Not sure how objective a comment that really is. I work with some extremely competent and objective women, and who are very good at getting their ideas across.
I'm not sure what you mean by "modern" feminism. There's ultimately one sort of feminism, and that's the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. And I don't see the under 20's rejecting any sort of feminism - rather it is so integrated into their culture that they take it for granted. The only modern twist is that feminism now often also means there shouldn't be the expectation to conform to the ideal of the stereotypical feminist.
Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them
its a very complicated topic that takes thousands of hours to look into properly but to summarize there are evolutionary psychology and physiological differences that cause differences of behavior on average which is blamed on culture / gender roles etc but its mostly innate. Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them and use other strategies to convince the public.
I think men and women are not quite equal in some ways, but should be treated equally under the law,
modern feminists think that everyone should be treated differently according to how much 'privilege' they have,
and some believe that there is an infinite amount of genders, not just 2, and it is removed from biology entirely.
I wonder what you mean by your second sentence about privilege.
If we change "women" and "feminism" to "ME-patients" and "ME-awareness", it might be easier to spot how unreasonable that argument is.I can say something about his privilege comment, as I have witnessed this first hand.
Whilst I support gender equality and recognise there is absolutely work to be done - particularly for women - that kind of attitude is frankly absurd, and it is the reason a lot of people feel alienated from feminism.
its a very complicated topic that takes thousands of hours to look into properly but to summarize there are evolutionary psychology and physiological differences that cause differences of behavior on average which is blamed on culture / gender roles etc but its mostly innate.
It's not just feminists - nobody can win an academic debate with an evolutionary psychologist, in the same way that nobody can win an academic debate with a BPS proponent.Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them and use other strategies to convince the public.
It shouldn't necessarily be relevant but I think men on average are better at objective analysis
You only have to have been a regular reader of this forum for a few months to know that's not true.
EDIT: My argument is that groups with unpopular demands, as feminists - or ME-patients - often experience that unhelpful behaviour from one or two members (sometimes from no one) gets exaggerated to the extreme in order to shut down the whole group.
I really enjoy discussing feminism and find it very interesting. It is so frustrating how much it costs to join a debate and trying to make sense inside a foggy head. I used to thrive on it and now I have to go take a nap instead..
Hope we're cool, @Cheesus
Agree!In fact I very much admire how respectful this debate has been.
@Kalliope
Absolutely. People can and should make a stand on the ground that they feel most passionately about.
This may not seem directly relevant to ME, since there are both male and female sufferers who have been treated appallingly by both male and female doctors.
Even if sexism is still hindering research to some extent - which is certainly possible even if I do not think it prevalent, particularly given the evidence in @Kalliope's comic - the best thing to counter that is simply to continue highlighting the biomedical nature of the disease as evidenced by existing research.
It's almost as good as having a time machineAgreed, I've rather enjoyed this discussion. It's a long time since I debated with someone who believes women can't debate...