The sexist reality of being a woman with ME

[trishrhymes]

Patriarchy is quite insidious in that it recruits women to reproduce their own oppression.

Very well put, @Cheesus

 

[Valentijn]

It might not be wise to tie your cause onto modern feminism as it is fast losing favor especially with the under 20s demographic, and Trumps presidency looks like it might accelerate that process.

I'm not sure what you mean by "modern" feminism. There's ultimately one sort of feminism, and that's the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. And I don't see the under 20's rejecting any sort of feminism - rather it is so integrated into their culture that they take it for granted. The only modern twist is that feminism now often also means there shouldn't be the expectation to conform to the ideal of the stereotypical feminist.

And there are lots of female psychologists like Trudie Chalder who are also doing a lot of harm promoting the BPS crap. Sadly, we are victims of women as well as men.

Yes, and they are just as happy to debase their own gender. In the process, they carefully position themselves above the rabble, as the supposed exceptional few who don't succumb to their weaker nature

 

[ash0787]

Not sure how objective a comment that really is. I work with some extremely competent and objective women, and who are very good at getting their ideas across.

its a very complicated topic that takes thousands of hours to look into properly but to summarize there are evolutionary psychology and physiological differences that cause differences of behavior on average which is blamed on culture / gender roles etc but its mostly innate. Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them and use other strategies to convince the public.

 

[ash0787]

I'm not sure what you mean by "modern" feminism. There's ultimately one sort of feminism, and that's the belief that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. And I don't see the under 20's rejecting any sort of feminism - rather it is so integrated into their culture that they take it for granted. The only modern twist is that feminism now often also means there shouldn't be the expectation to conform to the ideal of the stereotypical feminist.

Its usually divided into 3 or 4 'waves' according to the era, currently its on 3rd or 4th wave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

I think men and women are not quite equal in some ways, but should be treated equally under the law,
modern feminists think that everyone should be treated differently according to how much 'privilege' they have,
and some believe that there is an infinite amount of genders, not just 2, and it is removed from biology entirely.

 

[trishrhymes]

Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them

I'm tempted to say I'm lost for words at this statement, but that would play into the idea that, as a feminist I am unable to 'win' by rational argument and am conceding your point and letting you win in this debate, and am being all femaley and giving in. Instead I shall ask you politely to provide evidence.

If by academic debate you mean macho posturing under an archaic set of debating rules in front of a male dominated audience, I guess you might be right and feminists are sensible to opt out.

By the way, does your statement only apply to female feminists, or are male feminists (of whom there are many) incapable of winning academic debates too? And is it only feminist women who are incapable of winning academic debates, or are you really talking about all women? Do clarify.

 

[Cheesus]

I'm more interested to see the evidence he has come across in his thousands of hours of research that justify gender roles.

 

[reader62]

its a very complicated topic that takes thousands of hours to look into properly but to summarize there are evolutionary psychology and physiological differences that cause differences of behavior on average which is blamed on culture / gender roles etc but its mostly innate. Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them and use other strategies to convince the public.

Er....I hope you're just saying this to be deliberately provocative, not because you really believe it! I'm not quite sure why you think 'feminists can't win academic debates': is it because all the long words will blow our tiny minds, or because we will emotionally break down when confronted with hard masculine reasoning?

In fact there's a long tradition of academic feminism. I suggest Virginia Woolf and Simone de Beauvoir as starting points.

 

[trishrhymes]

I think men and women are not quite equal in some ways, but should be treated equally under the law,
modern feminists think that everyone should be treated differently according to how much 'privilege' they have,
and some believe that there is an infinite amount of genders, not just 2, and it is removed from biology entirely.

I too think men and women should be treated equally under the law.

I wonder what you mean by your second sentence about privilege. Do you mean positive discrimination to enable more women to participate in traditional male roles? And for that matter positive discrimination to enable men to participate in traditionally female roles?

I find it interesting that you claim to know what modern feminists think...

As to there being more than 2 genders, there are some people born with sexual organs of both sexes, ie hermaphrodites, and some people whose bodies develop with indeterminate gender, and others who feel they have been born in the wrong gender and transition fully or partly with the help of hormones and surgery. For me this is a personal situation for the individuals and none of my business except in so far as I don't want anyone of whatever gender to be discriminated against. If that means there are more than two genders, that's fine by me.

 

[Cheesus]

I wonder what you mean by your second sentence about privilege.

I can say something about his privilege comment, as I have witnessed this first hand.

I once got into an debate with someone who I would describe as deeply irrational feminist. She told me that I was not allowed to express my opinion on the subject of equality (despite my education in the area, though I didn't bring that up) because I am a white man, and therefore my privilege as a white man disqualifies me from the discussion. This is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem, and when I pointed that out I was accused of "mansplaining".

Whilst I support gender equality and recognise there is absolutely work to be done - particularly for women - that kind of attitude is frankly absurd, and it is the reason a lot of people feel alienated from feminism.

 

[Kalliope]

I can say something about his privilege comment, as I have witnessed this first hand.

Whilst I support gender equality and recognise there is absolutely work to be done - particularly for women - that kind of attitude is frankly absurd, and it is the reason a lot of people feel alienated from feminism.

If we change "women" and "feminism" to "ME-patients" and "ME-awareness", it might be easier to spot how unreasonable that argument is.

Whilst I support equal medical care and recognise there is work to be done - particularly for ME-patients - that kind of attitude is frankly absurd, and it is the reason a lot of people feel alienated from ME-awareness.


There might be some ME-activists (and feminists) behaving in ways I disagree with. They are not necessarily representative and I still expect us to be listened to as a group.

EDIT: My argument is that groups with unpopular demands, as feminists - or ME-patients - often experience that unhelpful behaviour from one or two members (sometimes from no one) gets exaggerated to the extreme in order to shut down the whole group.

I really enjoy discussing feminism and find it very interesting. It is so frustrating how much it costs to join a debate and trying to make sense inside a foggy head. I used to thrive on it and now I have to go take a nap instead..
Hope we're cool, @Cheesus

 

[TiredSam]

its a very complicated topic that takes thousands of hours to look into properly but to summarize there are evolutionary psychology and physiological differences that cause differences of behavior on average which is blamed on culture / gender roles etc but its mostly innate.

Since reading your post I have invested the thousands of hours necessary to look into this complicated topic properly, and to summarize, evolutionary psychology is one of those subjects where you can get away with making up any old rubbish, much like the BPS model. In fact I have just tried reading a book by Stephen Jay Gould and had to give up by page 28 because there's a limit to how much clap-trap I'm prepared to waste my time on.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

Also feminists usually can't win academic debates so they avoid them and use other strategies to convince the public.

It's not just feminists - nobody can win an academic debate with an evolutionary psychologist, in the same way that nobody can win an academic debate with a BPS proponent.

It shouldn't necessarily be relevant but I think men on average are better at objective analysis

You only have to have been a regular reader of this forum for a few months to know that's not true.

 

[Cheesus]

@Kalliope

I didn't say it was necessarily reasonable

Humans are not always rational actors. If they are continually exposed to a vocal yet irrational minority that claim to represent the whole, then they will feel resentment towards the whole. Just look at how the actions of a tiny percentage of Muslims have caused a huge backlash against the entirety of Islam.

 

[Cheesus]

You only have to have been a regular reader of this forum for a few months to know that's not true.

Yeah I am genuinely intimidated by the degree of intellect on this forum. I have never noticed that gender plays a role in who I regard as the most intimidating

 

[Cheesus]

EDIT: My argument is that groups with unpopular demands, as feminists - or ME-patients - often experience that unhelpful behaviour from one or two members (sometimes from no one) gets exaggerated to the extreme in order to shut down the whole group.

I really enjoy discussing feminism and find it very interesting. It is so frustrating how much it costs to join a debate and trying to make sense inside a foggy head. I used to thrive on it and now I have to go take a nap instead..
Hope we're cool, @Cheesus

Of course we are! I didn't take your rebuttal personally. In fact I very much admire how respectful this debate has been.

If this is you when you're foggy I don't want to face you when you have a clear head

 

[Kalliope]

In fact I very much admire how respectful this debate has been.

Agree!

And I don't mean one must be an explicit feminist in order to be an ME activist. All movements have diversities. As long as a line is drawn at hate speech and violence (which I am sure everyone here agrees with), and no group of people are discriminated (ok, we might make an exception for the BPS-crowd..) - I'd say bring it on! Let's share, discuss and move forwards together.

 

[Cheesus]

@Kalliope

Absolutely. People can and should make a stand on the ground that they feel most passionately about.

 

[trishrhymes]

@Kalliope

Absolutely. People can and should make a stand on the ground that they feel most passionately about.

Agreed, I've rather enjoyed this discussion. It's a long time since I debated with someone who believes women can't debate...

 

[Snowdrop]

I can appreciate how people may not want ME to be framed in a feminist reference. Feminism is a hot button concept that can mean a great many things not all of which complement each other. Like any ism it partly takes on the character of the person holding the view.

I don't find anything wrong with the article however I don't think I'd want to have ME viewed through only the lens of feminism. I can also understand how that might seem to make men who get ME feel as less important or a side issue. I'm sure men with breast cancer must know how that feels too. But as a woman I would have to say that these situations are really just a taste of what is a more regular experience for many women.

Lots of good points have been made here.

This may not seem directly relevant to ME, since there are both male and female sufferers who have been treated appallingly by both male and female doctors.

That's my experience. Since I've lived in a number of different places I've needed new Dr's. Male Female doesn't matter. They are taught to be dismissive. At the same time my Dr's were usually caring people who wanted to help but within the framework of what they were taught.

Even if sexism is still hindering research to some extent - which is certainly possible even if I do not think it prevalent, particularly given the evidence in @Kalliope's comic - the best thing to counter that is simply to continue highlighting the biomedical nature of the disease as evidenced by existing research.

Certainly we must focus on the biomedical nature of this disease. I points in the article can be valid and correct some misperceptions about the silly BPS narrative using a feminist reference without the whole narrative becoming about feminist ME. There will continue to be other articles with equally good and valid points with other reference frames.

 

[Valentijn]

Agreed, I've rather enjoyed this discussion. It's a long time since I debated with someone who believes women can't debate...

It's almost as good as having a time machine

 

[A.B.]

Sufferers are belittled in the culture and gender appropriate way.

For male sufferers that seems to involve denying that there is a problem at all.