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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Perhaps I remembered wrong, this study found no change:

Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1999 Nov;51(5):637-42.
The effect of melatonin administration on pituitary hormone secretion in man.
Forsling ML1, Wheeler MJ, Williams AJ.
Author information

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Evidence is accumulating that the nocturnal increase in melatonin may influence pituitary hormone secretion. The aim of this study was to determine the effect of exogenous melatonin, in concencetrations spanning the physiological range, on the release of pituitary hormones in man during daylight hours.

DESIGN:
A double blind, randomized, crossover study.

SUBJECTS:
Eight healthy male volunteers with a mean age of 21 +/- 0.5 years were studied on four occasions, observations being made after the adminstration of melatonin in doses of 0.05, 0.5 or 5.0 mg or placebo. They refrained from taking heavy exercise, alcohol and from smoking for 24 h prior to the study.

MEASUREMENTS:
Serum cortisol, growth hormone, prolactin and plasma oxytocin, vasopressin, sodium, osmolality and packed cell volume were measured in samples taken at 30 minutes intervals for 150 minutes after the administration of melatonin.

RESULTS:
Melatonin produced dose-dependent changes in circulating concentrations of oxytocin and vasopressin, the 0.5 mg dose being stimulatory, while 5.0 mg was inhibitory. These two doses stimulated growth hormone release, while there was no significant effect on prolactin or cortisol release.

CONCLUSIONS:
These results confirm that the nocturnal increase in melatonin could contribute to the patterns of oxytocin, vasopressin and growth hormone release seen over 24 h.

But:

[Melatonin reduces cortisol response to ACTH in humans].
 
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MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Perhaps I remembered wrong, this study found no change:



But:

[Melatonin reduces cortisol response to ACTH in humans].

The Examine.com cites your first-cited study and many others, although not your second one. Important perhaps to bear in mind that some studies have found reduced ACTH in people with ME/CFS, which could account at least partly for the cortisol abnormalities. Many of us seem to have had the Synacthen test (as have I), which involves administering synthetic ACTH to measure the cortisol response, but it seems to be inappropriate in ME/CFS because we don't have enough of our own ACTH, so measuring our cortisol response to ACTH is pretty pointless! We tend to test normal so that the doctors conclude that there is nothing wrong with our cortisol secretion.

We also tend to respond more strongly to many interventions than people without ME/CFS, so this needs to be borne in mind when reading studies that use high doses of melatonin (e.g. 100mg!). I only take 5mg, and many people take considerably less.

I guess it will also be important to ascertain whether or not someone is deficient in a substance before testing supplementation.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
A friend of mine, Gemma (who often comments on FTA and has been heavily researching enzymatic breakdown of starches) had a few questions/ideas for you guys:

Gemma said:
Many diseases start in mucosa and RS is not enough. What else helps building mucosa? Inulin? Pectin?

So (correct me if I am wrong), part of CFS picture could be:

-Non-secretor individuals have null-allele of FUT2 gene and do not express such α1,2-fucose containing glycan structures in their intestinal mucosa.
- no fucose available to E. coli by Bacteroides thetaiotaomicron (by cleaving fucose from mucin)
- or not enough B. thetaiotaomicron? http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bacteroides_thetaiotaomicron
- or too little mucin and too little fucose then?
- E. coli's virulence is not mediated and so goes wild? (perhaps triggered by another factor, too)
Have they tried the most obvious pro/prebiotic yet? Human milk?I learnt of fucose from this article recently, when searching for, ehm, ehm, salivary amylase copy number polymorphism, and found this blog post, comprised of 3 topics, scrolled down and read of fucose in the third part:

"Human milk is a very rich source of the sugar, with amounts far higher than all other species. The sugar content of human milk varies by the same fucosyltransferase enzymes FUT1, FUT2 and FUT3 that code for ABO and Lewis blood groups and and ABH secretor status.

Turns out that fucose is not that easy to find in Nature or the diet. There is a bit of it in Brewer’s yeast and certain mushrooms, but by far the greatest concentration is found in seaweeds, in particular the brown seaweeds such as bladderwrack (Fucus vesiculosis) and kelps of the genus Laminaria.

Human breast milk is the most fucosylated of all mammals (153 human milk oligosaccharides to a paltry 23 in our bovine breathren) so perhaps John D. Rockefeller, who reportedly hired a wet nurse in his old age to give him breast milk, was on to something after all. Turns out the old boob-snuggler lived to be 98."

http://n-equals-one.com/blogs/2010/10/13/gene-copy-numbers-autism-and-seaweed/

Additional info: Fucose - E. coli relation, updated and explained here (Feb 2013)

Microbiology: EHEC Downregulates Virulence in Response to Intestinal Fucose
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221201500X
 

Christopher

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Pennsylvania
I'd like to ask what people who are trying this what their diets are like besides consuming the prebiotic foods. I'm Specifically, I'm curious about starch and carb consumption. I was on a generally low-starch diet for a while, which helped some fatigue symptoms. I then started experimenting with RS, and then shortly after with adding high-starch foods regularly (potatoes, rice, corn flour). Actually I have been quite addicted to carbohydrates in the past few months.

My fatigue, toxicity, and immune-activation symptoms have increased greatly since starting to consume all of these starches. I have recently experienced mold exposure, so this possibly could be causing these symptoms as well. I have tried to eliminate starches on a temporary basis as an experiment to see if these symptoms decrease, but the addiction is quite strong and it has been a struggle. I am currently trying again (this is day 1).

I am curious, though, for people that are experimenting with these prebiotics, what your diets are like.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I'd like to ask what people who are trying this what their diets are like besides consuming the prebiotic foods. I'm Specifically, I'm curious about starch and carb consumption. I was on a generally low-starch diet for a while, which helped some fatigue symptoms. I then started experimenting with RS, and then shortly after with adding high-starch foods regularly (potatoes, rice, corn flour). Actually I have been quite addicted to carbohydrates in the past few months.

My fatigue, toxicity, and immune-activation symptoms have increased greatly since starting to consume all of these starches. I have recently experienced mold exposure, so this possibly could be causing these symptoms as well. I have tried to eliminate starches on a temporary basis as an experiment to see if these symptoms decrease, but the addiction is quite strong and it has been a struggle. I am currently trying again (this is day 1).

I am curious, though, for people that are experimenting with these prebiotics, what your diets are like.

So my questions: Is this "addiction" manifested by specific carbohydrate cravings and/or adverse symptoms when you withhold carbohydrates for a duration of time. Also, do you get any sense that you have altered your gut organisms?
 

Christopher

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Pennsylvania
So my questions: Is this "addiction" manifested by specific carbohydrate cravings and/or adverse symptoms when you withhold carbohydrates for a duration of time. Also, do you get any sense that you have altered your gut organisms?

1. I feel a high (contentment, relaxation) when I'm eating carbs and shortly after their consumption, with a corresponding decrease in mood afterwards (fatigue, irritability, immune activation). I used to have an addiction to marijuana with similar highs and lows, including the immune activation during the "low period". I have been diagnosed with bipolar in the past, and I have read that some bipolar patients benefit from ketogenic or low-carb diets.

2. I can't say for sure that I have, although it seems likely. Since I started consuming RS and then the starches shortly afterwards, I have had more frequent bowel movements where before tended towards constipation.

I am going to attempt returning to a low-starch diet and manage the cravings to see if this has any effect on my fatigue and immune activation. I'm of course unsure of the mechanism in play, but I am considering the starches are causing too much fermentation which is producing an increase in gut toxicity. I would also guess that as opposed to these prebiotics which the "good" bacteria may prefer over the "bad", that the starches I've been consuming are feeding both equally, or primarily the "bad".

I'd like to hear from others too how they are faring with high starch/carb foods.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
A friend of mine, Gemma (who often comments on FTA and has been heavily researching enzymatic breakdown of starches) had a few questions/ideas for you guys:

Reishi is a good source of fucose. I had contemplated this along with trehalose as a complementary prebiotic, These sugars typically have other effects too, including acting as bacteriocidic agents, so they presumably kill some microorganisms and cause adverse symptoms.

I don't find too many examples "natural" immunostimulants that are not also prebiotics or bioenergetic enhancers. These compounds all seem to get their potency because of their effect on the microbiome. Echinacea is rich in arabinogalactan. Seaweed is a great source of not just fucose, but other nutrients reserved for our microbes, especially those in the colon. Aloe Vera is great for the GIT, but it's anti-inflammatory effects cannot be separated from its role as a prebiotic rich in some of the key polysaccharides for nurturing the colonic microbiome, like mannose and galactose.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Reishi is a good source of fucose. I had contemplated this along with trehalose as a complementary prebiotic, These sugars typically have other effects too, including acting as bacteriocidic agents, so they presumably kill some microorganisms and cause adverse symptoms.

I don't find too many examples "natural" immunostimulants that are not also prebiotics or bioenergetic enhancers. These compounds all seem to get their potency because of their effect on the microbiome. Echinacea is rich in arabinogalactan. Seaweed is a great source of not just fucose, but other nutrients reserved for our microbes, especially those in the colon. Aloe Vera is great for the GIT, but it's anti-inflammatory effects cannot be separated from its role as a prebiotic rich in some of the key polysaccharides for nurturing the colonic microbiome, like mannose and galactose.

Interesting. So, looks like maybe Gemma touched on a piece of the puzzle. These essential sugars (like fucose) are known as "glyconutrients" in the field of glycobiology:

The in vitro immunomodulatory effects of glyconutrients on peripheral blood mononuclear cells of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome

Glyconutritional Implications in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

We've touched on glycans (which are usually metabolized by flora) earlier in the thread.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Interesting. So, looks like maybe Gemma touched on a piece of the puzzle. These essential sugars (like fucose) are known as "glyconutrients" in the field of glycobiology:

The in vitro immunomodulatory effects of glyconutrients on peripheral blood mononuclear cells of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome

Glyconutritional Implications in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

We've touched on glycans (which are usually metabolized by flora) earlier in the thread.
So how do we make sure that we get all necessary glyconutrients - would reishi provide this (Vegas mentioned this as a source of fucose)?

These are the ones mentioned in the article above:

mannose, galactose, fucose, glucose, N-acetylgalac-tosamine, N-acetylglucosamine, sialic acid, xylose
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
So how do we make sure that we get all necessary glyconutrients - would reishi provide this (Vegas mentioned this as a source of fucose)?

These are the ones mentioned in the article above:

mannose, galactose, fucose, glucose, N-acetylgalac-tosamine, N-acetylglucosamine, sialic acid, xylose

I don't think we need to consume glucose. We make it from other things, also store it as glycogen which we can release quickly when necessary, and a lot of foods contain it already. We can't use glucose efficiently (Julia Newton found that the muscles of people with ME/CFS do not increase their uptake of glucose when activity is increased, unlike people without ME/CFS). This means that our blood glucose levels can be very prone to becoming excessive, increasing the risks of insulin resistance/diabetes, damage to blood vessels, etc.

That's why low-carb diets are probably better for many/most of us - they release glucose more slowly and steadily, avoiding spikes and troughs.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
So how do we make sure that we get all necessary glyconutrients - would reishi provide this (Vegas mentioned this as a source of fucose)?

These are the ones mentioned in the article above:

You are already using one of them. Arabinogalactan has galactose. There are algal sources of n-acetylgalactosamine, and it is found in shark cartilage. I'm more interested in re-establishing microbial synthesis of this. I'm getting my n-acetylglucosamine from a chitin polymer source. The latter two polysaccharides are particularly important in maintaining the intestinal lining and are intricately related. In fact I was curious if N-acetyglucosaminadase could be a marker for cancer, AIDS, and ME/CFS just like NaGalase is given their interrelationship. NaGalase is N-Acetylgalactosaminidase a glycoside hydrolase involved in the catabolism of n-acetylgalactosamine. N-acetylgalactosaminidase is the enzyme paired with N-acetylgalactose. It is my hypothesis that the marked elevation of the human and structurally similar NaGalase is a product of the collapse of a functional analog derived from our bacteria, but I'm just guessing.

As I mentioned there are some more benefits of soil based organisms that I am exploring, and one of them relates to the snzymatic capacity to synthesize N-acetylgalactosamine. Our microbes have extensive capabilities involved in maintaining these cells, you just need to find the right combinations, I happen to think that these prebiotics may be essential. I'm having good results, but this is some strong stuff.
 
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Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Interesting. So, looks like maybe Gemma touched on a piece of the puzzle. These essential sugars (like fucose) are known as "glyconutrients" in the field of glycobiology:

The in vitro immunomodulatory effects of glyconutrients on peripheral blood mononuclear cells of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome

Glyconutritional Implications in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

We've touched on glycans (which are usually metabolized by flora) earlier in the thread.

Yes, but not just hexoses and other sugars, but I think the amino-acid bound polysaccharides have particular significance. There are numerous implications. If we provide the right prebiotics, those organisms having particular aminoglycosides should provide a complementary role in mitigating the effects of pathogens. When cellular lysis of commensals occurs, the polysaccharides that become available from the breakdown of our own good bacteria participate in inhibiting the growth of pathogenic bacteria and they also can mitigate the toxicity of lipopolysaccharide. At least this is true of many commensals, and it certainly contributes to the difficulty in restoring physiologic conditions. Some have used these lysates, but this is a natural process that protects us everyday...until we lose some of those organisms vital to maintaining these defenses against the toxicity of pathogens.

Also, I am intrigued by the role these compounds may play in stimulating the synthesis of components of the cytoskeleton. The tight junctions of the intestinal epithelium are anchored in the cell by something called filamentous actin or f-actin. I don't exactly know what role the bacterial organisms play in regenerating actin binding proteins, but I bet there is one. F-actin is disrupted by unchecked oxidative stress and it is specifically mediated by upregulation of inducible NOS.

The hell with geeky science stuff though, these compounds are totally remodeling my intestinal epithelium. Talk about a missing key.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
1. I feel a high (contentment, relaxation) when I'm eating carbs and shortly after their consumption, with a corresponding decrease in mood afterwards (fatigue, irritability, immune activation). I used to have an addiction to marijuana with similar highs and lows, including the immune activation during the "low period". I have been diagnosed with bipolar in the past, and I have read that some bipolar patients benefit from ketogenic or low-carb diets.

2. I can't say for sure that I have, although it seems likely. Since I started consuming RS and then the starches shortly afterwards, I have had more frequent bowel movements where before tended towards constipation.

I am going to attempt returning to a low-starch diet and manage the cravings to see if this has any effect on my fatigue and immune activation. I'm of course unsure of the mechanism in play, but I am considering the starches are causing too much fermentation which is producing an increase in gut toxicity. I would also guess that as opposed to these prebiotics which the "good" bacteria may prefer over the "bad", that the starches I've been consuming are feeding both equally, or primarily the "bad".

I'd like to hear from others too how they are faring with high starch/carb foods.

I don't know how much help I can offer with this, because I lost my craving for carbohydrates a very long time ago, and I eat a low to moderate intake of these today without any problem. This loss of the carb addiction was correlated to about a year of very-low carbohydrate consumption. Unfortunately, there was a concomitant inability to tolerate any carbs that came with this VLC diet, which I think was caused by the decline of the SCFA synthesis. You cannot eat just proteins and fats, you have to have fermentable stuff for the colon, at least if you have an already compromised microbiome. This was the mistake I made after having been on a 4000-5000 calorie carbohydrate-intensive diet that I needed to keep up with the calories I was burning. I would not recommend severe carb restriction, but I think you will benefit from substituting grains for plant fibers. Do it slowly. Also, I find that 1.5 grams or so of Omega 3's is very helpful in stabilizing mood.

I suspect that if you want to modify this neurotransmitter-driven desire for high glycemic carbs you may benefit from some prebiotics that influence bacterial populations in the small intestine where the glucose is taken up. The high glycemic stuff is not making it to the colon. I will defer to others experiences, but I had an intense carb craving and as my bacterial populations (presumably) shifted, the craving greatly subsided. Actually, I think my life-long craving was for complex carbs not simple carbs, but I went against this craving and cut down to 50 grams or less and my microbiome and I both collapsed. You can favorably impact lactic acidosis very quickly with this simple carb restriction, but you don't want to shift to far towards protein.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
I don't think we need to consume glucose. We make it from other things, also store it as glycogen which we can release quickly when necessary, and a lot of foods contain it already. We can't use glucose efficiently (Julia Newton found that the muscles of people with ME/CFS do not increase their uptake of glucose when activity is increased, unlike people without ME/CFS). This means that our blood glucose levels can be very prone to becoming excessive, increasing the risks of insulin resistance/diabetes, damage to blood vessels, etc.

That's why low-carb diets are probably better for many/most of us - they release glucose more slowly and steadily, avoiding spikes and troughs.

You're generalizing. Some people do terribly on a low carb diet — they wind up with glucose deficiencies and immune issues. Happens a lot more than you might think.

Not everyone can make all the glucose they need to glycosylate all 2,000,000 different kinds of glycans used in the human body (known as the Human Glycome). A large majority of our calories go towards maintaining this glycome. When there is a glucose deficiency, it's because the body is unable to make enough, and many glycans stop getting produced. This is why many low VLCers get mucus deficiencies — their bodies can't produce enough mucin a major glycan in the human body.

I agree that complex carbs are best though.
 
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Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Actually, I think my life-long craving was for complex carbs not simple carbs, but I went against this craving and cut down to 50 grams or less and my microbiome and I both collapsed. You can favorably impact lactic acidosis very quickly with this simple carb restriction, but you don't want to shift to far towards protein.

Complex carbs are the way to go. But therein lies the paradox. Everyone automatically thinks that eating a "lot" of complex carbs should equate to a high carb/starch diet. It really doesn't. Eating a whopping pound of complex carbs each day (as the PHD recommends) would bring one to roughly 150g of carbs, or only 30% of calories as carbs in a typical 2,000 calorie diet. That's not a lot of carbs. It really isn't. Complex carbs are often mostly water. Eat those complex carbs with a few pats of butter and the glycemic index is brought down considerably.
From: Fat And Glycemic Index: The Myth Of “Complex Carbohydrates”

Low Glycemic Index: What’s Responsible?

So what’s the real story behind glycemic index? Why do we digest some ‘carbohydrates’ (sugars) so much more slowly than others? And how does a flour tortilla top the list?

Answer: it’s the fat.
  • Mexican flour tortillas have a GI of 30, whereas American whole wheat bread has a GI of 72. Remember, you need plenty of lard (or, at least, grain oil) to make a nice, flat, chewy tortilla.
  • A plain French baguette has a sky-high glycemic index of 95: spread some butter and jam on it, and the GI declines to 65.
  • Cooked white rice has 0.2% fat and a GI of 64; a meal of white boiled rice, grilled hamburger, cheese, and butter has a GI of 24.
  • A Pizza Hut Super Supreme pizza (13.2% fat) has a GI of 30, whereas a Vegetarian Supreme (7.8% fat) has a GI of 49.
    (Source.)
This is common sense once we think about it for a minute. As anyone who’s taken a freshman nutrition class can tell you, fat inhibits gastric emptying and slows digestion.
Pierre Thouvenot C Latge M-H Laurens and J-M Antoine said:
Fat and starch gastric emptying rate in humans: a reproducibility study of a double-isotopic technique. Am J Clin Nutr 1994;59(suppl):781S.

Executive Summary: A high-fat mixture of egg yolks, olive oil, and butter left the stomach over 50% slower than spaghetti…and that doesn’t even count the time taken to digest it in the intestine. (Also note that spaghetti has a glycemic index of 38-61, depending on cooking time—much lower than bread or cereal at 70-80.)

In conclusion, the theory of “complex carbs” is a red herring. The primary driver of glycemic index is fat content. The more fat, the slower the sugars (‘carbohydrates’) are digested, and the lower the glycemic index.


It's the refined carbs that cause people to eat too many carbs. SAD is typically 60% carbs. It would be nearly impossible to consume that equivalent in complex carbs (2 pounds of potatoes!!).

Honestly, most people would have a difficult time trying to get to a very moderate carb level of 30% of calories from complex carbs — it's an enormous quantity when you see it on your plate.
 
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Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Do you guys know your Fucose genetics?

Gemma said:

Note, it's a bit of a paradox in that it's the non-secretors that are immune to Norovirus. One of those gene mutations that were intended to be "beneficial" in some situations.

Fucose as a biomarker for gut immunity: WO 2014012892 A1 said:
In this context the non-secretor form of the FUT2 gene is beneficial. Individuals who carry two copies of the non-secretor form of FUT2 do not provide attachment points for the virus and are therefore virtually immune to Norwalk virus infections .

So, it's a tradeoff.
 
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MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
You're generalizing. Some people do terribly on a low carb diet — they wind up with glucose deficiencies and immune issues. Happens a lot more than you might think.

Not everyone can make all the glucose they need to glycosylate all 2,000,000 different kinds of glycans used in the human body (known as the Human Glycome). A large majority of our calories go towards maintaining this glycome. When there is a glucose deficiency, it's because the body is unable to make enough, and many glycans stop getting produced. This is why many low VLCers get mucus deficiencies — their bodies can't produce enough mucin a major glycan in the human body.

I agree that complex carbs are best though.

As I've said before, I don't advocate a VERY low-carb diet. By 'low carb' I guess I mean lower than is common in modern diets, which are ridiculously high in bread, cakes, biscuits and sugar among other things.

I don't think that many people have a problem reducing carbs from the very high levels common in 'modern diets', do they?

As a vegan, I probably get a plentiful supply of complex carbs.