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The microbiome hypothesis: Lipkin's collaborative, part 1 (Simon McGrath blog)

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
My PEM is ameliorated by glutathione and BCAAs, but not by hydrocortisone or dexamethasone.

Have you ever tried the corticosteroid PEM elimination protocol detailed in this post, using the exact timing and dose specified, taken just before exertion? For example: 80 mg hydrocortisone taken 30 minutes before exertion.



Yes they do in some people short term. A very, very few will have major long term benefits. Most people that take them for weeks, months or years, of which there are many here, get some minor to moderate improvements.

Some are made much worse by corticosteroids. I am one person they make worse and there are others as well.

Yes, corticosteroids when used daily for weeks can make ME/CFS much worse. But I am looking at their effect in short term use, when taken one-off just for a day. In this case, they generally improve ME/CFS symptoms.



Steroids also lower the TH2 response of the immune system not just the TH1 arm. Asthma is often TH2 dominant and steroids bring relief to many people with asthma.

Not as far as I am aware: this paper says corticosteroids increase Th2, as does this.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
LPS by the way decreases Th1, see this paper. So if LPS were escaping the gut and entering the bloodstream, it would reduce the antiviral Th1 immune response, possibly making it harder to clear chronic viral infections.

I've sometimes wondered whether LPS translocation, assuming it is occurring in ME/CFS, might be a factor that perpetuates the viral infections.
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Have you ever tried the corticosteroid PEM elimination protocol detailed in this post, using the exact timing and dose specified, taken just before exertion? For example: 80 mg hydrocortisone taken 30 minutes before exertion.
No, because glutathione and leucine, isoleucine and valine are quite effective.

I do take 20mg a day of hydrocortisone, plus 1-6mg dexamethasone for 3-4 days after IVIG every 2 weeks, but am trying to cut down on steroids, both for bone health as my DEXA score has declined, and I've gained 10 lbs in the past year on this regimen.

A little hydrocortisone can stimulate immune function, but too much can suppress it. I wonder if your 80mg would suppress it... and damage bone health.





Yes, corticosteroids when used daily for weeks can make ME/CFS much worse. But I am looking at their effect in short term use, when taken one-off just for a day. In this case, they generally improve ME/CFS symptoms.





Not as far as I am aware: this paper says corticosteroids increase Th2, as does this.[/QUOTE]
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
Do you believe that ME/CFS is related to perpetual viral infections?

I would not say I believe the viral theory, because it has not been proven beyond all doubt, but it's a good theory, and quite a bit of evidence to support it, especially for enterovirus ME/CFS, as this infection can be found in the muscle, stomach and brain tissues of ME/CFS patients. You don't find much viral infection in the blood though in ME/CFS.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
But we know corticosteroids ameliorate PEM, so that fact is evidence against the idea that PEM is caused by bacteria in the bloodstrea

Sorry Hip but I usually agree with your posts but not this time. I have had to take Prednisolone since 2003 because my adrenals weren't functioning properly but I get PEM after I walk my dog every time I do this. Admittedly I usually recover after about 15 hours which I know is a lot quicker than many with ME but after exercise the energy has left my body and for the most part I just have to be horizontal to recover plus I get help from my oxygen concentrator.

Also my immune system is pretty rubbish, but it was like this before I started on the Pred. I get loads of viruses and sometimes these will go into a bacterial infection.

I also have a leaky gut, SIBO, pathogenic bacteria, low bacterial abundance and Candida despite eating a good diet, taking targeted probiotics and eat about 35 grams of fibre daily. Something is holding my gut back from doing what it should be doing. I also take HCL with each meal and good digestive enzymes and take various herbal supplements including oregano and olive leaf extract.

Looking forward to the webinar in 30 minutes which I believe is about the gut and ME and I do think it is possible that there could be a virus or something similar that stops the gut from recovering.

Pam
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
Yes, corticosteroids when used daily for weeks can make ME/CFS much worse.

Cannot agree with that statement either because for me they gave me some sort of life back and according to my Fitbit I regularly do 9000 steps daily (unless I have a virus when it drops back to about 4000).

Pam
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
I have had to take Prednisolone since 2003 because my adrenals weren't functioning properly but I get PEM after I walk my dog every time I do this.

What sort of dose of prednisolone are you taking each day?

It is normal-dose corticosteroids which are reported to greatly ameliorate PEM, not low-dose corticosteroids.


If you are taking low-dose prednisolone, eg, 5 mg daily, then quite a few ME/CFS patients do well on such long term low-dose corticosteroid regimens. But don't expect any major PEM reduction (I have not heard of any PEM protection reported by such low doses).

But if it is normal-dose prednisolone you are taking, say in the range of 20 mg to 60 mg daily, that should reduce PEM more, but that regimen would also lead to substantial immunosuppression of the antiviral immune response, and I would be surprised if any ME/CFS patient whose condition involves chronic viral infection did not get worse in the long-term on such normal-dose regimens.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
@Learner1 also said earlier in this thread that her PEM is not ameliorated by the corticosteroids hydrocortisone or dexamethasone, but again, she is using a low-dose protocol of hydrocortisone 20 mg daily (equivalent to prednisolone 5 mg), and you would not expect these low-doses to substantially prevent PEM.

It's normal doses of corticosteroids, when taken around 1 hour before any physical or mental exertion (and that timing is important), that provide protection from PEM (but just for 4 to 8 hours after taking the drug). This is detailed in the "PEM Busters" thread.

Normal dose corticosteroids are reported to be potent "PEM shielders", which can entirely eliminate PEM from occurring in some patients, and this fact should be investigated more by researchers, as it may well throw light on the mechanisms and pathophysiology of PEM.
 
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bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
What sort of dose of prednisolone are you taking each day?

Yes it's low dose at 6 mg daily. I am incredibly sensitive to the dose, with just a 0.5 mg drop I am unable to have a decent walk with my dog and will run out of power quite quickly but when I go back to my usual dose of 6mg the difference is amazing and I feel so much stronger. Corticosteroids are definitely very powerful from my experience. BTW I didn't find this when I was originally on hydrocortisone which is interesting, I got false highs and then way too quickly bad lows but this hasn't been the case with the Pred, it just feels entirely natural.

Pam
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
If you read those reports by @hamsterman in the PEM Busters thread about his use of normal dose corticosteroids, it's absolutely incredible what he is able to achieve in terms of intense exercise !

He is a severe ME/CFS patient, meaning bedbound much of the day. Yet when he takes either hydrocortisone 80 mg or prednisolone 20 mg around 30 minutes before a major cardiovascular workout at the gym, he gets no PEM at all. And this is a severe patient.

He takes these normal dose corticosteroids only once a week, in order to prevent the ill effects that you would get if you used normal doses every day.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
@Learner1 also said earlier in this thread that her PEM is not ameliorated by the corticosteroids hydrocortisone or dexamethasone, but again, she is using a low-dose protocol of hydrocortisone 20 mg daily (equivalent to prednisolone 5 mg), and you would not expect these low-doses to substantially prevent PEM.
I also take 3-6mg of dexamethasone for 4 days every 2 weeks which is the equivalent of 60-300mg hydrocortisone and find it does absolutely nothing for PEM.
It's normal doses of corticosteroids, when taken around 1 hour before any physical or mental exertion (and that timing is important), that provide protection from PEM (but just for 4 to 8 hours after taking the drug). This is detailed in the "PEM Busters" thread.

Normal dose corticosteroids are reported to be potent "PEM shielders", which can entirely eliminate PEM from occurring in some patients, and this fact should be investigated more by researchers, as it may well throw light on the mechanisms and pathophysiology of PEM.
This is a very dangerous way to manage PEM long term. Corticosteroids may mask the problem, but do not get at its root - they suppress inflammation.

I have developed both a respect for and a fear of using corticosteroids... According to the Mayo Clinic, long term use of steroids can have significant, and even permanent side effects, which I am experiencing, and therefore trying to reduce doses to only what I need.
From Mayo:

Side effects depend on the dose of medication you receive and may include:
  • Elevated pressure in the eyes (glaucoma)
  • Fluid retention, causing swelling in your lower legs
  • High blood pressure
  • Problems with mood, memory, behavior and other psychological effects
  • Weight gain, with fat deposits in your abdomen, face and the back of your neck
When taking oral corticosteroids longer term, you may experience:
  • Clouding of the lens in one or both eyes (cataracts)
  • High blood sugar, which can trigger or worsen diabetes
  • Increased risk of infections
  • Thinning bones (osteoporosis) and fractures
  • Suppressed adrenal gland hormone production
  • Thin skin, bruising and slower wound healing
What you might want to investigate is why glutathione and BCAAs ARE effective PEM busters.

The glutathione attacks the oxidative stress, a cardinal finding of the ME/CFS clinicians at the March Clinicians' Summit. And here is some science behind why BCAAs might be helpful, which include "BCAA supplementation was associated with increased expression of genes involved in antioxidant defense and marked reduction of ROS production":

https://www.otsuka.co.jp/en/health-and-illness/bcaa/fatigue/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413110003049
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/95/2/894/2597505
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3156598/
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
I also take 3-6mg of dexamethasone for 4 days every 2 weeks which is the equivalent of 60-300mg hydrocortisone and find it does absolutely nothing for PEM.

Well possibly there are subsets in ME/CFS, and not every subset gets a PEM preventing effect from corticosteroids. However, if you were interested in testing the benefits of corticosteroids on PEM, it would probably be a good idea to use the same drugs, dosages and timings as the patients who reported these benefits.

Dexamethasone probably has different receptor affinities than hydrocortisone and prednisone, in terms of their effects on the glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid receptors, so dexamethasone might be different in some respects, which potentially might explain why it does not have a PEM preventing effect.



This is a very dangerous way to manage PEM long term. Corticosteroids may mask the problem, but do not get at its root - they suppress inflammation.

Well, severe ME/CFS patient @hamsterman has been taking 20 mg of prednisolone once weekly to facilitate his weekly gym workouts for over a year without issue. Furthermore, he found his intense gym workouts completely cured his POTS (POTS is known ti improve through exercise, unlike ME/CFS). So at least in his case, no adverse effects occurred, and indeed he became healthier. This is not really long term steroid use, if you are only taking 20 mg once a week.

But I agree that it's possible there might be some adverse effects of even just once weekly use for some patients. But wow, what a sense of freedom to be able to go to the gym once a week, when normally you are bedbound

I should point out that @hamsterman also has Crohn's as well as ME/CFS, so possibly that makes a difference. But he is not the only ME/CFS patient that gets temporary relief from symptoms from corticosteroids.



What you might want to investigate is why glutathione and BCAAs ARE effective PEM busters.

I did investigate that in this post (that's the original post that formed the basis of the PEM Busters thread).

I found that most of the supplements that ME/CFS patients on this forum reported as reducing their PEM appear to suppressed exercise-induced lactate. Both glutathione and BCAA do this. So lactic acid inhibition may be the mechanism by which many of these PEM busters work.

The MBM theory of PEM details how lactate may play a role in PEM — see this post.
 
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Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Well, severe ME/CFS patient @hamsterman has been taking 20 mg of prednisolone once weekly to facilitate his weekly gym workouts for over a year without issue. Furthermore, he found his intense gym workouts completely cured his POTS (POTS is known ti improve through exercise, unlike ME/CFS). So at least in his case, no adverse effects occurred, and indeed he became healthier. This is not really long term steroid use, if you are only taking 20 mg once a week.

But I agree that it's possible there might be some adverse effects of even just once weekly use for some patients. But wow, what a sense of freedom to be able to go to the gym once a week, when normally you are bedbound
I exercise 5-7 days a week. Taking 20mg of prednisolone is a LOT to do EVERY DAY.

I already have bone loss which my doctors attribute to the steroids I have to take, so I am trying to minimize them and do everything I can to not lose bone...
I found that most of the supplements that ME/CFS patients on this forum reported as reducing their PEM appear to suppressed exercise-induced lactate. Both glutathione and BCAA do this. So lactic acid inhibition may be the mechanism by which many of these PEM busters work.
I posted some articles about the BCAAS which go beyond that.

For the glutathione, my lab work shows huge oxidative stress, THE key thing the clinicians agreed on at the ME/CFS Clinicians' Summit, and my mitochondrial function testing showed huge amounts of ROS being generated by Complexes II and III. So, if I increase my energy demand, to make more ATP, it throws off that many more ROS. So, both my ME/CFS specialist AND my functional medicine doctors suggested preloading glutathione before exercise and following up with more, thereby sopping up the extra ROS.

And, they both are concerned about the amount of steroids I'm taking and want me to back off.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
THE key thing the clinicians agreed on at the ME/CFS Clinicians' Summit, and my mitochondrial function testing showed huge amounts of ROS being generated by Complexes II and III. So, if I increase my energy demand, to make more ATP, it throws off that many more ROS.

What's your view on the how extra ROS created by the mitochondria by exercise might effect or contribute to PEM?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
I exercise 5-7 days a week.

Clearly then you are not a severe patient.

But for those who are, one-off occasional use of corticosteroids in the way some patients have described may be an enabling approach that allows severe patients to perform vigorous exercise, which in turn may help with conditions like POTS, and may be useful for maintaining general conditioning.

Perhaps if GET were performed by first giving patients corticosteroids, it would not lead to the worsening of ME/CFS that some patients have reported this exercise regimen results in.



So, if I increase my energy demand, to make more ATP, it throws off that many more ROS. So, both my ME/CFS specialist AND my functional medicine doctors suggested preloading glutathione before exercise and following up with more, thereby sopping up the extra ROS.

If your doctors' theory is that ROS generated by mitochondria are the cause of PEM, or a factor in PEM, which is a reasonable theory, then you could perhaps test this theory by taking an antioxidant which directly targets mitochondrial superoxide, the primary ROS generated during mitochondrial operation. Other ROS produced by mitochondria arise as a downstream consequence of the superoxide. In the mitochondria H2O2 is the next downstream ROS to superoxide.

Superoxide dismutase (SOD) is the antioxidant which targets superoxide, but taking a superoxide dismutase supplement like Glisodin is not going to help, as this will not get into the mitochondria, where the superoxide is found.

There is a special SOD that works exclusively in the mitochondria, called MnSOD (aka: SOD2). The spin trap antioxidant tempol is a potent SOD2 memetic, so taking tempol as a supplement will boost mitochondrial antioxidant capabilities against superoxide. If your theory is right, you might expect tempol to reduce or prevent PEM.

Although you would probably also want to ramp up mitochondrial antioxidants which deal with H2O2, as MnSOD or tempol will breakdown superoxide into H2O2.

I tried tempol, but did not notice much.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Clearly then you are not a severe patient.
Two years ago, I was MUCH worse than I am now - sleeping 16 hours a day and brain fogged most of the time. I have been gradually improving, with the use of extensive lab work, to identify a plethora of problems, which match many of the ones the leading researchers have been finding, and applying a variety of treatments to successfully address the abnormal lab results. It has not been easy, but it is possible, with curious doctors and modern treatments, to improve.

One of the first things my doctor did was to test adrenal, thyroid, and sex hormones, which were all severely impacted, and to get me on doses of pregnenolone, DHEA, hydrocortisone, testosterone, estriol, progesterone, T3 and T4.

I fought the hydrocortisone at first, but my doctor made me take it, and it raised me from a sleepy heap in the floor after 20 minutes. It has been a help ever since. However, I have tried taking more when I have PEM and it does nothing.
But for those who are, one-off occasional use of corticosteroids in the way some patients have described may be an enabling approach that allows severe patients to perform vigorous exercise, which in turn may help with conditions like POTS, and may be useful for maintaining general conditioning.
As in my case, it can be a help to improve functioning. But ability to exercise also involves B12, amino acids, oxygen, CoQ10, carnitine, etc.

If we become depleted in these nutrients, our muscles break down. Feeding the body to support the needs for exercise is wise and I believe one thing that is missing from ME/CFS exercise programs.
Perhaps if GET were performed by first giving patients corticosteroids, it would not lead to the worsening of ME/CFS that some patients have reported this exercise regimen results in.
And vitamins, minerals, lipids, antioxidants, and mitochondrial nutrients. DHEA and testosterone are helpful, too.
If your doctors' theory is that ROS generated by mitochondria are the cause of PEM, or a factor in PEM, which is a reasonable theory, then you could perhaps test this theory by taking an antioxidant which directly targets mitochondrial superoxide, the primary ROS generated during mitochondrial operation. Other ROS produced by mitochondria arise as a downstream consequence of the superoxide. In the mitochondria H2O2 is the next downstream ROS to superoxide.

Superoxide dismutase (SOD) is the antioxidant which targets superoxide, but taking a superoxide dismutase supplement like Glisodin is not going to help, as this will not get into the mitochondria, where the superoxide is found.

There is a special SOD that works exclusively in the mitochondria, called MnSOD (aka: SOD2). The spin trap antioxidant tempol is a potent SOD2 memetic, so taking tempol as a supplement will boost mitochondrial antioxidant capabilities against superoxide. If your theory is right, you might expect tempol to reduce or prevent PEM.

Although you would probably also want to ramp up mitochondrial antioxidants which deal with H2O2, as MnSOD or tempol will breakdown superoxide into H2O2.
This is exactly what we've been doing with a great deal of success. Lipid replenishment therapy has been helpful at repairing damage and increasing my function. NAD+ has been helpful, too.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,866
However, I have tried taking more when I have PEM and it does nothing.

Did you take corticosteroids when the PEM already arrived? That apparently does not help at all to reduce PEM (explained in the PEM Busters thread).



This is exactly what we've been doing with a great deal of success. Lipid replenishment therapy has been helpful at repairing damage and increasing my function. NAD+ has been helpful, too.

I don't think those treatments would reduce mitochondrial ROS levels, as far as I am aware, anyway.
 
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